You misunderstand, or more probably my writing was clear as tar. I meant the government was the bag of dicks, not the people who started the strike. The latter don’t particularly care to be openly despised and dismissed by their own civil servants, and neither do I. I have no particular love for unions, nor for strikes for the hell of it which they sometimes engage in but in this case, yeah, I stand by them.
Yes and no.
It’s true that some of the actions go beyond mere striking, but they’re also a way to keep the strike short and to the point. The employees of gas refineries could just sit on their asses for three months until the country’s fuel reserves die out, *then *get listened to. Meantime, they’d have to dip into their own meager savings to survive, and their employers would lose out a ton of money too, probably end up firing a lot of people down the line if not going under. And there would also be a big lag between refineries re-opening and fuel flowing back everywhere. Everybody loses.
Or they could use their now copious free time to block access to the fuel depots, getting the compromise ball rolling immediately by obtaining more or less the same practical results only quicker and with fewer long term consequences.
I could hardly disagree more. In my opinion, your right to strike is only your right to quit your job. You do not have the right to prevent the company hiring a replacement because you refuse to do your job. And you do not have the right to use blockades to stop other people going about their business. If they try, charge them with false imprisonment or something.
Exactly. As soon as it turns into blockades it becomes criminal action, and blockading fuel is especially dangerous. It could literally kill people.
And for what? A fucking 2 year increase in the state retirement age that is barely a scratch on the surface of what France needs to do if it’s not going to go bankrupt in the next 20 years? I’d have more sympathy with the stikers if they were right but their selfishness, short-sightedness and ignorance is the epitomy of everything that is reprehesible about socialist unions.
So basically anybody working for a vital piece of infrastructure has more political sway than everybody else. Got it. I stand by my assessment that this isn’t democracy. It’s mob rule where a government cannot make any unpopular decision no matter how vital to the running of the country (in this case, saving the country from bankruptcy). Your right to strike ends where it starts to affect me going about my business. As soon as a strike starts getting out of control (as it is in France, which is currently importing electricity due to workers shutting down nuclear power plants, amongst other vital services) the army needs to move in and crush the strike.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but your opinion illustrates a total lack of knowledge about the history of the (European) labor unions and the rules which both employers and employees have agreed on throughout Europe.
When the workers’ unions started their activity in the late 1800s/early 1900s (a time when workers’ conditions were totally outrageous), hiring strikebreakers was a common strategy among employers. Strike action (and lock-out) are regarded today as both legal and legitimate weapons in workplace conflicts in Europe, and according to the agreed rules, it is not permitted to put unorganized workers to do the work which should have been done by a striking worker.
Those are the rules. If you don’t want to play according to the rules, find another game or try to change them. If you go out on a playing field and break the rules just because you don’t like them, the referee will throw you out of the game.
I’m amazed the no-one else seems to have picked up on this. Similar claims were made later in the discussion. It is patently bollocks and shows a complete lack of knowledge of basic European geography.
Here’s a map of the EU in its current form:
If a flight doesn’t involve France, Spain or Portugal, the chances of you entering (never mind “having to”) French airspace in minimal. Can you honestly look at that map and say “Anybody flying east to west or north to south within the EU almost certainly has to cross French airspace at some point” and mean it? I mean, come on.
There’s a difference between not knowing a rule and not supporting a rule, you know. Or do you think I singled it out by blind luck?
Yes, these tactics are regarded as legitimate by some people. I am not one of those people. I regard anyone who would use these tactics to be scum of the lowest order.
Maybe you’re just ignorant of British Citizenship rules, but I have to say that I find the insistence that some (hell, a lot) of Americans on this board have with referring to British Citizens as “British Subjects” quite offensive.
In 1949 we became citizens that were also subjects. Since 1983 we’ve been citizens and the term “British Subject” was used for a very specific group of people.
France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, the UK, Switzerland, Ireland, etc. etc. All of these countries are affected by the strike. It isn’t bollocks at all. Sure, if you’re hopping from Poland to Germany you aren’t affected. If you’re flying from Italy to the UK, or from Spain to Germany, or from Switzerland to Ireland, you are.
You should also include the Netherlands, Belgium and parts of Germany in that, too, depending where you are flying from. Brussels to Northern Italy, for instance, requires a flyover of France if you’re taking the most direct route.
Anybody. Flying east/west or north/south. I live in Sweden and am British. I can happily fly east/west without getting anywhere near France. I can also fly south to central Europe (and beyond) without going anywhere near France. Hell, I can fly east without getting anywhere near France.
Like it or not, France is not a central hub for the whole EU where everything has to pass through it. We get on just fine leaving it over there on the western side of the EU.
“depending where you are flying from” or to as well.
It’d be a bit weird to go to the Netherlands, Belgium or Germany via France from any of the countries East of France, wouldn’t it. Which is probably the majority of people in Europe.
That’s like saying to fly to Texas from Georgia you have to go via California.
Actually, considering size and position, what you are pretty much saying is equivalent to “all internal flights in the US have to go via Texas”.
Cool. Amend my claim to “a significant number of countries in the West of Europe are affected”. It doesn’t affect the point of the thread any: which is French ATC strikes are damaging not just to the French economy, but to the EU’s common economy.
Actually, no, you’re wrong on this point. As I mentioned, flying from Italy, Switzerland or Slovakia (arguably: Bratislava’s right on the Western border of Slovakia) requires you to pass over France if you’re flying into Belgium. All three are east of France
Two of which share a border. Anyway, that’s a couple of examples. That still doesn’t mean “Anybody flying east to west or north to south within the EU almost certainly has to cross French airspace at some point”. As I said before, I live in Sweden. I have flown to all sorts of countries in Europe - Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta and the United Kingdom as a few examples. The only time I (possibly) entered French airspace was when going to Barcelona, and even that isn’t a given.
Listen, I’m not denying that some flights have to go through France. that’s obvious. What I am denying is “Anybody flying east to west or north to south within the EU almost certainly has to cross French airspace at some point”.
Saying that couple of flights from countries just to the east of France enter (or may enter) French Airspace when going to country that shares a border with France really isn’t much of an argument.
I’ve already amended that. Though I don’t think a claim that the majority of flights within the EU have to go through France is outrageous. The geographic East of Europe may be more populous, but the geographic West is more prosperous, and there’s a lot of Germans, Brits and Dutch who fly to Spain, Portugal, Italy if only for a summer holiday (never mind with business) etc.
I honestly think it is outrageous. I honestly do. Even if the majority of flights originate in Western Europe, it is still not a given that they’re going to pass over France. It just isn’t.
But at least I got you to amend the ridiculous statement in the opening post. I have no doubt that this is harming France quite gravely, but the idea that somehow it is going to bring the EU to its knees is comical.
That’d be great if the mob constituted anywhere near a majority. But as usual it’s just a small minority, so it could more accurately be described as thug-rule.
You speak of “throughout Europe” but mention rules which only apply to France. Or what? For certainly those rules don’t apply to Denmark. It is permitted to put unorganized workers to do any work which he is qualified for, and no work is reserved for “striking worker”. Likewise barricading the work place or setting up barricades somewhere else are naturally both against the law.
You haven’t shown that. All you’ve shown is that the straight line path between many countries in the EU does not intersect France, and that Capt. Ridley’s earlier claim contained some hyperbole.
Personally I don’t feel confident enough to make claims as to what would be the severity of french airspace being closed for a significant period.
In any case, this thread has been derailed in at least two ways:
Firstly, this tangent about whether one can fly between two european countries without flying over france.
Secondly the whole thing about defending strikes in the abstract. I think most people would agree there are circumstances where strikes are a necessary course of action.
OTOH the protests in france are for dumb reasons in my opinion, and in the opinion of most political and economic experts. And the strikes are disruptive enough to the rest of the EU that we should be putting pressure on the french government to execute plan B.
Out of interest how much does anybody here know about the internal politics of the EU? Because I’d be fascinated if anybody would point out which article in any treaty would permit the EU to take action over this.
There are clearly delineated areas in which the certain bodies of the European Union can take direct action over member states - and further many of these issues would be contested by member states and would therefore have to go through the court system. Which would take some time.
Lets look at the actors here 1) Is the European Commission, they have no grounds for legal action (or at least none has been shown here, “it effects the economy” is not sufficient*.) They would need to refer the case to the Court of Justice in order to seek any legal remedy. Further the Commission is aware of its general unpopularity with European Citizens, and as their role is to seek greater european integration they have no incentive to side with France’s Government. So legally and politically the Commission can do nothing.
Is France and the member states. They want as little interference from the EU as possible, if anybody can show me any evidence to the contrary I’ll be happy to revisit this point. But in general national governments like to deal with civic domestic problems (as opposed to environmental or economical) themselves.
Is the citizenry, obviously the protesters don’t want the EU involved. Citizens against the protests would have to go through the EU parliament, and I’m not sure what they can do in this situation.
So in summary, the EU has no jurisdiction to get involved and doesn’t want to. Member states don’t want the EU to get involved. And I’ve seen no evidence of French groups trying to involve any aspect of the EU in the dispute.
*Just because the US has a super-elastic inter-state commerce clause doesn’t mean the EU does.
I’ve already amended that. Though I don’t think a claim that the majority of flights within the EU have to go through France is outrageous. The geographic East of Europe may be more populous, but the geographic West is more prosperous, and there’s a lot of Germans, Brits and Dutch who fly to Spain, Portugal, Italy if only for a summer holiday (never mind with business) etc.