# The EU, Turkey, and... the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810 "2004-06-30T01:55:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/21 "2004-06-30T14:36:14Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > 1. SHOULD Europe care what Mr. Bush says, or is he poking his nose where it doesn’t belong (again)? Maybe they shouldn’t. Just don’t complain when Americans don’t care what European opinion is on what we do. Marc ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/22 "2004-06-30T14:38:26Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > The rights of Turks living in European nations are, if anything, rather better defended in those nations than in Turkey. The upper echelons of Turkish government have been notoriously antiestablishmentarian since it became a modern state. Mostly, this is because Kemal Ataturk, the “father of modern Turkey”, was, and that’s the way he sets things up. Thus, defending the rights of non-resident Turks (by which, presumably, you mean their religious freedoms) is not high on the to-do list of the Turkish polity. Actually, no, I wasn’t thinking of religious freedoms. Apart from rather silly disputes like that over a girl’s right to wear a headscarf to school (silly on **both** sides, if you ask me), I have never heard of Islamic religious practices being suppressed anywhere in modern Europe. I was thinking, rather, of the situation of Turkish “guest-workers” in Germany who cannot apply for citizenship even if they were born in Germany and their parents were born in Germany, because German citizenship is determined by _jus sanguinis,_ right of blood, meaning you have to have ethnically German ancestors to qualify. (If I recall correctly, that is a law the German Empire adopted in the late 19th Century, so it would not have to extend citizenship to Jewish and Slavic inhabitants of eastern territories it had recently acquired through war – and it’s still on the books of the Federal Republic.) Unless that problem has been solved since last I heard about it? If not, then the German Turks can’t vote, and in theory could be deported any time the state decides to do so. Also, there’s the problem of Turks in Germany and elsewhere in Europe occasionally being victims of unofficial forms of discrimination, and hate-crime attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/23 "2004-06-30T14:44:27Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > :rolleyes: Yeah and Finns drink, Swedes are such fucking bores, and Noweigians have whaleblubber on their brains. You want me to answer that, you rephrase it without the insults. Maybe you see it as an insult because you assume that the current waves of anti-islam sentiments in Denmark is bad thing. It may be, but I was just stating a fact in our discussion whether religion plays a part in Turkey’s struggle to become an EU member, it wasn’t an insult. Denmark is a democracy with free speech and the population has every right to express whatever they like. I don’t reject that many in Denmark believes that Turkey is on the outside because of religion, but I maintain that this has never been a primary reason in Brussel, and that’s why I asked for a cite. Thanks for the other info btw. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/24 "2004-06-30T14:50:13Z")
> [@Alien](#): > > Question: What is a special limited EU membership? Are you talking about the EEA? If so, note that the EEA is not going to be expanded. I’ve never heard about this. 😕 What is the EEA? > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > The religion thing that some have proposed as an obstacle shouldn’t be one. Turkey was founded on a secular ideal, and nowhere in the literature of the ECSC, ECM, EC, or EU has it ever said anything about religion (besides “freedom of”) And what are the ECSC, ECM, and EC? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/25 "2004-06-30T14:55:00Z")
And the above discussions leave me unclear: Do people of the EU nations view Turks as “alien” primarily because of their **religion** or their **race?** ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/26 "2004-06-30T15:04:52Z")
> [@Alien](#): > > I asked for a cite to your claim that Turkey isn’t an EU member because of religion. You must either put together a decent analysis, or point to statements from the official EU that this is the reason they are not a member. I don’t think you will find any. And yet, I did not make the claim that Turkey isn’t a EU member because of religion. I said it was A big sticking point. As in one of many. And it is. Do you really think Kohl’s and VGE’s comments aren’t indicative of a fairly widespread feeling? > [@](#): > > No, I don’t think I’m kidding myself. You think of Turkey as something the rest of Europe is unfamiliare with. I didn’t say that and I don’t think it. And it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I didn’t say Europe was unfamiliar with Turkey, I said that they are going to have a harder time than a lot of other countries because they are a Muslim nation, rather than a Christian one. > [@](#): > > But it’s not so. For example, tourism is the most important industry in Turkey. In my homecountry, 20% of the population travels abroad at least once a year. And the most popular destinations are in Turkey, Greece and Spain. What the hell does this have to do with anything? Answer me this, if Turkey was a state with a Christian heritage, do you think their road into the EU would be easier than it is now, everything else being equal? I think it’s undeniable that it would be. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/27 "2004-06-30T15:23:39Z")
**Brutus** : > [@](#): > > Once again, Chirac missed a “good opportunity to remain quiet.” You misspelled “Bush”. Actually I agree with Bush (be nice to see Turkey in the EU, IMHO), I also agree with Chirac (it isn’t any business of the US), and I think Bush is more out of touch with reality than we realized if he thinks much of the EU is going to take his opinion about _anything_ into account other than inspiring a few politicians to distance themselves from it as a way of garnering some more votes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/28 "2004-06-30T16:13:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 What is the EEA? [European Economic Area](http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/eea/). Allows some countries to “participate” in the single market w/o being full EU members. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/29 "2004-06-30T16:19:18Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Actually I agree with Bush (be nice to see Turkey in the EU, IMHO), I also agree with Chirac (it isn’t any business of the US), and I think Bush is more out of touch with reality than we realized if he thinks much of the EU is going to take his opinion about _anything_ into account other than inspiring a few politicians to distance themselves from it as a way of garnering some more votes. The statement wasn’t actually advice for the EU, it was just a way of stroking Turkey to keep them closer to the fold. No one expects the EU to actually listen. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/30 "2004-06-30T16:21:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 What is the EEA? > And what are the ECSC, ECM, and EC? The EEA is the European Economic Area, an EU light membership status created in the late 80ies/early 90ies to make it easier for non-member states to become members by first becoming EEA members, then go for full EU memebership. Currently made up by Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein. The other ones are former abbreviations for EU: ECSC = European Coal and Steel Community (the beginning of the EU, in 1951) EC (European Community) & EEC (European Economic Community) & ECM (European Common Market) = former ones for EU (changed to EU in 1994) It’s been a long ride since the 1950ies. ---
**Author:** ![Karmagun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Karmagun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karmagun)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/31 "2004-06-30T16:25:48Z")
European here. > [@Zagadka](#): > > 1. SHOULD Europe care what Mr. Bush says, or is he poking his nose where it doesn’t belong (again)? Europe should care about what the president of the most powerful country in the world says. They can consider his opinion, then choose to ignore it. The nose of the president of the most powerful country in the world belongs wherever he chooses to stick it. It’s a tough world. > [@Zagadka](#): > > 1. Is Mr. Bush right, or does he need a geography lesson and is vastly oversimplifying the matter? Turkey in the EU is a good idea for a several reasons, which we can discuss in another thread. Those who do not want Turkey in the EU hide their racism behind the human rights issue. > [@Zagadka](#): > > 1. Will his attempt at playing Mr. Nice Guy appeal to Muslims and Europeans, or will they become more upset? Turkey is pleased, as they’ve been asking to enter the EU for over a decade and they need all the help they can get. The current members of the EU, expecially the French and the Germans think: can someone please rid us of this idiot asap. All of the above strictly IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/32 "2004-06-30T17:05:21Z")
If Turkey was to be a member of the EU, wouldn’t it have to clean up its act considerably? Wouldn’t that serve the interests of the US in several ways? ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/33 "2004-06-30T17:11:03Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > And yet, I did not make the claim that Turkey isn’t a EU member because of religion. I said it was A big sticking point. As in one of many. And it is. Do you really think Kohl’s and VGE’s comments aren’t indicative of a fairly widespread feeling? > > I didn’t say that and I don’t think it. And it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I didn’t say Europe was unfamiliar with Turkey, I said that they are going to have a harder time than a lot of other countries because they are a Muslim nation, rather than a Christian one. > > What the hell does this have to do with anything? > > Answer me this, if Turkey was a state with a Christian heritage, do you think their road into the EU would be easier than it is now, everything else being equal? > > I think it’s undeniable that it would be. I’m sorry. You made the claim that religion is “a big sticking point” why Turkey isn’t an EU member. I asked for a cite, not personal opinions. You still haven’t provided a cite, a cite that this is official or unofficial EU policy. In my book, what a party member of a christian party in a specific country says is not relevant to the discussion (that is, unless they can veto a Turkish membership). You make three big mistakes in your assumption: 1. You confuse the past with the present. 20 years ago religion and culture would maybe have been an issue, ref. an earlier post of mine. It’s not an issue today. The EU is expanding rapidly and may even include countries to the east of Turkey in a couple of decades. 2. You see Europe as Christian. But even though Europe is a continent with a Christian heritage, very few people see themselves as Christians. In a recent survey in my home country only 4% said they were Christians, down from 15% ten years ago (in a similar survey in the US about 60% regarded themselves as Christians). This is also the reason why the traditionally strong center-right Christian parties in Europe today has much less support than they used to have. 3. The EU was up until 1992 first and foremost a _trade agreement_, not a union or a federation. It’s only recently that the EU has involved itself in social issues. To answer your question, if Turkey was a state with a Christian heritage and everything else were equal, then no, I don’t think it would be any easier for Turkey to become an EU member, simply because EU membership is about trade, not culture, see below. However, it _would_ have silenced some of the opponents of Turkish membership in the Christian community, so in that regard you might say it would be easier. I have already listed the reasons for why Turkey haven’t become an EU member in a previous post, mainly that the Turkish economy doesn’t even come close to fullfilling the requirements for EU membership (inflation, debt & deficits) and Turkey’s shady human rights record; notably the death penalty, prison torture, and outlawing Kurdish culture. I also said that a lot has changed in Turkey the last two years. Currently one of the major remaining issues is the continued imprisonment of a few lawfully elected representatives to the Turkish parliament. They were jailed because they were Kurds and embraced Kurdish culture. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/34 "2004-06-30T17:11:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > … I was thinking, rather, of the situation of Turkish “guest-workers” in Germany who cannot apply for citizenship even if they were born in Germany and their parents were born in Germany, because German citizenship is determined by _jus sanguinis,_ right of blood, meaning you have to have ethnically German ancestors to qualify. (If I recall correctly, that is a law the German Empire adopted in the late 19th Century, so it would not have to extend citizenship to Jewish and Slavic inhabitants of eastern territories it had recently acquired through war – and it’s still on the books of the Federal Republic.) Unless that problem has been solved since last I heard about it? If not, then the German Turks can’t vote, and in theory could be deported any time the state decides to do so. This is a bit peripheral to this thread but as it is a frequent misconception I’d like to give some information. Disregard as appropriate for purposes of this thread. - the _ius sanguinis_ rule was (and is) that you inherit German citizenship from your parents on the basis of their citizenship not ethnicity. That means the descendants of naturalized parents inherit their citizenship as a matter of course. The “ethnic German ancestors” option was/is an _additional_ way to acquire citizenship, that’s used by members of ethnic German populations to immigrate. (AFAIK it’s only open for ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe/the former Soviet Union as other populations are not deemed to have been ethnically persecuted). - considerations on recent territorial accquisitions will hardly have figured in the legislation of the 1871-1918 empire as the last of these acquisitions were in the 18th century. - Nowadays children born in Germany whose parents have eight years legal residence get German citizenship (but have to decide between age 18 and 23 between renouncing their other citizenship or the German one). Parents of already born children up to age ten could apply to have their children also profit from that; relatively few did apply. - the term of legal residency that confers a right to get naturalized without administrative discretion used to be 15 years, and is now 8 years. (you can get naturalized before but at the government’s discretion, meaning it does help if you are a sports celebrity or similar). That means that fully two thirds of resident aliens (the human sort) could get naturalized at any time if they so chose. Judging by the numbers most of them are reluctant to do so, which seems to indicate that e.g. the disadvantages of not being a citizen in Turkey outweigh the disadvantages of not being a citizen in Germany to them. One factor may be that in most countries of origin aliens may not own real estate, which is a consideration if you stand to inherit the family home/farm. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/35 "2004-06-30T18:30:33Z")
> [@Karmagun](#): > > Those who do not want Turkey in the EU hide their racism behind the human rights issue. I don’t doubt that there are those whose objections to Turkey are racist in nature, but I _strongly_ object to your statement that _all_ of ours are. ---
**Author:** ![Karmagun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Karmagun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karmagun)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/36 "2004-06-30T18:50:05Z")
fair enough 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/37 "2004-06-30T18:59:50Z")
> [@Alien](#): > > I’m sorry. You made the claim that religion is “a big sticking point” why Turkey isn’t an EU member. I asked for a cite, not personal opinions. You still haven’t provided a cite, a cite that this is official or unofficial EU policy. In my book, what a party member of a christian party in a specific country says is not relevant to the discussion (that is, unless they can veto a Turkish membership). So the fact that a large number of people fought to get a reference to Christian heritage specifically in the EU constitution is not an indication that a large segment of people with power feel that Christianity and culture are a defining element of the European Union is not an indication of what’s going on? Followed up by two extremely influential European politicians from two different countries who specifically laid out that the reason they object to Turkish membership is because they are Muslim. But I’m sure those are just isolated incidents and reflect in no way, shape or form a larger attitude of a number of EU legislators. Taken together, these aren’t indicators that religion and culture aren’t going to be a large obstacle that the Turks are going to have to overcome? OK then. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > 1. You confuse the past with the present. 20 years ago religion and culture would maybe have been an issue, ref. an earlier post of mine. It’s not an issue today. The EU is expanding rapidly and may even include countries to the east of Turkey in a couple of decades. I do nothing of the kind. In a couple decades, I might have monkeys come crawling out of my ass. We might as well just say, in a couple of decades, there won’t be a European Union so this whole Turkey thing is moot. What happens in a couple of decades has no bearing on the obstacles that face Turkey right now. And one obstacle is that Turkey is often seen as a non-European country and one of the reasons for that is their religion. Now, as I said before, Turkey can overcome their religion by quickly complying with all EU requirements so fully that the EU has no choice but to allow them in, without admitting that the only reason is xenophobia. But so long as Turkey is viewed as an outsider, they aren’t going to be cut any breaks by the EU. > [@](#): > > 1. You see Europe as Christian. But even though Europe is a continent with a Christian heritage, very few people see themselves as Christians. In a recent survey in my home country only 4% said they were Christians, down from 15% ten years ago (in a similar survey in the US about 60% regarded themselves as Christians). This is also the reason why the traditionally strong center-right Christian parties in Europe today has much less support than they used to have. I don’t see Europe as Christian. I’m well-aware that most Europeans these days describe themselves as non-religious. That’s unimportant though. Christianity is still present in the culture and its an aspect of shared history in the EU that Turkey does not have. > [@](#): > > 1. The EU was up until 1992 first and foremost a _trade agreement_, not a union or a federation. It’s only recently that the EU has involved itself in social issues. I’m aware of that and it has nothing to do with anything we’re talking about. > [@](#): > > However, it _would_ have silenced some of the opponents of Turkish membership in the Christian community, so in that regard you might say it would be easier. So, in other words, it would remove the objection of a block of opponents. So I guess that Turkey’s religion really is an obstacle, isn’t it? Thank you for conceding. > [@](#): > > I have already listed the reasons for why Turkey haven’t become an EU member in a previous post, mainly that the Turkish economy doesn’t even come close to fullfilling the requirements for EU membership (inflation, debt & deficits) and Turkey’s shady human rights record; notably the death penalty, prison torture, and outlawing Kurdish culture. I also said that a lot has changed in Turkey the last two years. Currently one of the major remaining issues is the continued imprisonment of a few lawfully elected representatives to the Turkish parliament. They were jailed because they were Kurds and embraced Kurdish culture. I agree. So long as these conditions persist, Turkey will not be admitted the EU. And if they can improve in these regards to such an extent that the EU can no longer object on these grounds, they will be. But because of their culture and religion, Turkey will not be cut any slack that another country with a similar heritage might be. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/38 "2004-06-30T19:36:19Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > One factor may be that in most countries of origin aliens may not own real estate, which is a consideration if you stand to inherit the family home/farm. !!! I’ve never heard of any country having a law that forbids a foreigner from owning real property! Is this typical in Europe? Or in the Middle East or North Africa? Is it the law in Turkey? Another thing – people keep talking about anti-Turkish “racism” – do Europeans really view Turks as a different “race”? I mean, in physical appearance, they aren’t very different from the (modern) Greeks, are they? ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/39 "2004-06-30T20:39:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > !!! I’ve never heard of any country having a law that forbids a foreigner from owning real property! Is this typical in Europe? Or in the Middle East or North Africa? Is it the law in Turkey? Some infomation of varied quality (I only googled for a few minutes) on [Eastern Europe/former USSR [8 years old]](http://www.unece.org/press/trd2e.htm), [Hungary](http://www.ired.com/news/mkt/hungary2.htm), [Turkey](http://www.solidine.com/engels/onroerendgoed/onroerend5.htm), [the Czech Republic](http://www.mzv.cz/washington/cons/nemovitosti.htm). I also remember from press reports that Denmark had negotiated an exemption to EU rules on nondiscrimination towards EU citizens (so we Germans don’t buy all of Denmark for weekend homes 😉 ), and that Poland’s EU accession package included a stay of a few years on free ownership of land (they also fear German deep pockets). Commercial investors usually get around this by owning a local corporation that owns the land. BTW when Googling I saw that Mexico also restricts foreign ownership of real estate, withing 30 miles of the coastline/60 miles of the border. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Another thing – people keep talking about anti-Turkish “racism” – do Europeans really view Turks as a different “race”? I mean, in physical appearance, they aren’t very different from the (modern) Greeks, are they? No, they are not. If I wanted to distinguish Turkish and other European people on the street I’d go by cultural indicators, in dress and, mainly, accents. Anyway, In Germany and I think large parts of Europe it’s taboo to refer to people’s race. Talk about ethnicity all you want (in a non-disparaging way) but don’t mention race. When I first came upon an example of an US employee database in a database tutorial I was flabbergasted: they use a field for a _racial classification_? Unthinkable in most of Europe, I think. On the other hand the term “racism” is often used in a sense which includes discrimination against a group of people that is not, or not much, different in physical appearance. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810/40 "2004-06-30T21:22:06Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > So the fact that a large number of people fought to get a reference to Christian heritage specifically in the EU constitution is not an indication that a large segment of people with power feel that Christianity and culture are a defining element of the European Union is not an indication of what’s going on? Correct. > [@Neurotik](#): > > Followed up by two extremely influential European politicians from two different countries who specifically laid out that the reason they object to Turkish membership is because they are Muslim. You mean the two _retired_ politicians, both from _Christian Democratic parties_. You might as well claim that apples are better than oranges, quoting the head of Unlimited Apples Inc. And btw, do you know that Germany actually supports Turkish membership? > [@Neurotik](#): > > But I’m sure those are just isolated incidents and reflect in no way, shape or form a larger attitude of a number of EU legislators. Taken together, these aren’t indicators that religion and culture aren’t going to be a large obstacle that the Turks are going to have to overcome? OK then. :rolleyes: Right on. The problem is that you oversimplify. You see (to some extent at least) Europe = Christian and Turkey = Muslim, therefore EU != Turkey. But if culture and religion is your only criteria, then there wouldn’t be any EU at all. > [@Neurotik](#): > > I do nothing of the kind. > > In a couple decades, I might have monkeys come crawling out of my ass. We might as well just say, in a couple of decades, there won’t be a European Union so this whole Turkey thing is moot. > > What happens in a couple of decades has no bearing on the obstacles that face Turkey right now. And one obstacle is that Turkey is often seen as a non-European country and one of the reasons for that is their religion. > > Now, as I said before, Turkey can overcome their religion by quickly complying with all EU requirements so fully that the EU has no choice but to allow them in, without admitting that the only reason is xenophobia. > > But so long as Turkey is viewed as an outsider, they aren’t going to be cut any breaks by the EU. You’re really digging yourself in deep here. Let me repeat what I said: _The EU is still first and foremost a **trade agreement** and up until recently Turkey didn’t even come close to fullfilling any of the requirements needed as a trade partner_. And the fact that the EU is based on a broad trade agreement has _everything_ - not nothing, but everything - to do with what we’re discussing here. Turkey simply doesn’t fulfill the economic requirements. Have you forgotten the economic meltdown in Turkey a few years ago? Do you really think that the rest of EU will admit Turkey, the biggest population next to Germany, in to the EU and the Euro currency, without any economic discipline whatsoever? Try to imagine the amount of damage that could do to the economy in the rest of Europe. You say that Turkey is often seen as a non-European country. Care then to explain how come there has been discussions recently about linking a program for peace in Israel & Palestine with a trade agreement with the EU? Care to explain why possible new members or trade agreements following Turkey and Balkan are with Ukraine, Belarus, Moldavia, and even Georgia, Armenia? Care to explain why the Council of Europe is holding up a vision of an 800 million strong unified Europe (the EU is currently 450 million)? There’s a quiet revolution taking place (and I’m not saying it’s all a good thing) . FYI, the EU and Turkey has had a strong relationship for a long time, beginning in 1963. Let me point you to a couple of sources: The EurActiv page about EU-Turkey relationship: [http://www.euractiv.com/cgi-bin/cgint.exe?204&OIDN=2000765&-tt=el](http://www.euractiv.com/cgi-bin/cgint.exe?204&OIDN=2000765&-tt=el) > [@](#): > > "In short: > Turkey has been an Associate Member of the EU since 1963 and an official candidate for enlargement since 1999. If, at the end of 2004, the EU finds that Turkey has fulfilled the Copenhagen criteria, negotiations on full membership status will start with Ankara “without delay”. > … > Ever since the foundation of modern-day Turkey in 1923, this country with a predominantly Muslim population has been a secular democracy closely aligned with the West. Turkey was a founding member of the United Nations, and a member of NATO (since 1952), the Council of Europe (1949), the OECD (1961) and an associate member of the Western European Union (1992). > … > > The main backers in Europe of Turkey’s ambitions for EU membership are Germany, Britain, Spain and Italy. France, Austria, the Netherlands and Sweden appear reluctant to throw their weight behind Ankara’s candidacy, and several new Member States remain opposed to the EU giving Turkey a date. > … > Turkey’s traditional enemy, Greece, has by now practically become a cheerleader for Ankara’s EU membership. According to Athens, it is better to have Turkey in the club than outside. “We simply believe that if and when [Turkey] joins the European Union it will be obliged to observe these rules and values. This will by itself resolve most of our problems,” said former Greek Defence Minister Yannos Papantoniou. The newly appointed government of Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis is expected to continue with this goodwill approach. " * * * The conclusions of the European Council from 1997 to 2003 (I’m only quoting from the last one, December 2003): [http://europa.eu.int/comm/enlargement/turkey/pdf/european\_councils\_.pdf](http://europa.eu.int/comm/enlargement/turkey/pdf/european_councils_.pdf) > [@](#): > > "The Brussels European Council of 12 December 2003, welcomes the considerable and determined efforts by the Turkish government to accelerate the pace of reforms, many of which are significant in political and legal terms. The legislative packages so far adopted, the first important steps taken to ensure effective implementation, as well as the progress in addressing many priorities under the Copenhagen political criteria and in the revised Accession Partnership have brought Turkey closer to the Union. Turkey has also made significant progress in meeting the Copenhagen economic criteria. > > However, further sustained efforts are needed, in particular as regards > > - strengthening the independence and functioning of the judiciary > - the overall framework for the exercise of fundamental freedoms (association, expression and religion) > - the further alignment of civil-military relations with European practice, > - the situation in the Southeast of the country and cultural rights. > > Turkey also has to overcome macro-economic imbalances and structural shortcomings." * * * > [@Neurotik](#): > > So, in other words, it would remove the objection of a block of opponents. So I guess that Turkey’s religion really is an obstacle, isn’t it? Thank you for conceding. > … > I agree. So long as these conditions persist, Turkey will not be admitted the EU. And if they can improve in these regards to such an extent that the EU can no longer object on these grounds, they will be. But because of their culture and religion, Turkey will not be cut any slack that another country with a similar heritage might be. Come on. You used a strawman. You could as well claim that giving a disabled man a wooden foot would make it easier for him to walk to the store, but it’s still a moot point if the store is 2000 miles away, he wouldn’t be able walk that far anyhow. It’s like leveling a 100 feet mountain when there’s 10000 feet mountain furter down the road that cannot be leveled. But it would remove one obstacle, right? Whatever the religious and cultural heritage, Turkey will not be admitted if they don’t clean up the economy and their human rights record, and _that’s_ the main hurdle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-turkey-and-the-us/252810.md?page=3)