# The Eurasian Economic Union: Soviet menace reborn, or just plain regional progress? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743 "2014-06-01T02:56:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/1 "2014-06-01T02:56:29Z")
The treaty establishing the [Eurasian Economic Union](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Union) was signed May 29; to go into effect 01/01/15 following ratification. Modeled on the EU, its founding members are former Soviet republics Russia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan (BORAT: “Come grasp the mighty phenis of our great Vladimir / From junction with testes to tip of its face!”). Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Armenia and Uzbekistan also are planning to join. And Ukraine (observer status only). The USG does not like this. > [@](#): > > The United States has expressed its opposition to the Eurasian Union, claiming it is “an attempt” to re-establish a USSR-type union among the former Soviet republics.[27] In December 2012, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton claimed “It’s not going to be called that [USSR]. It’s going to be called customs union, it will be called the Eurasian Union and all of that, but let’s make no mistake about it. We know what the goal is and we are trying to figure out effective ways to slow down or prevent it”.[27] But, look, this union is not the product of Russian tanks rolling in to crush national aspirations. These former Soviet states **want** to join, which means they probably see some material economic benefit in doing so, which means they’re probably right. They have institutional memories of being one economic unit from the Soviet days. They all speak enough Russian to communicate with each other and do business efficiently. Probably they will eventually use the ruble as common currency. So, they’ll form a customs union, trade freely with each other in a stable environment, and grow more prosperous, which means the world will be that much more prosperous. Why object? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/2 "2014-06-01T03:01:39Z")
Tsk. Mods, please move this thread to GD. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/3 "2014-06-01T05:01:48Z")
Done. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/4 "2014-06-01T05:11:12Z")
Don’t really have much to add, but from what I’ve read, at least part of the reason for forming a customs union has come about because of China’s long-term plan to ship goods to Europe via Central Asia (rather than using an ocean route). ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/5 "2014-06-01T05:36:46Z")
Belarus misses the USSR more than most and this does not change much. Kazakhstan is more interesting. Support for Putin is high but squishy in Kazakhstan. Support for the Union there is more iffy but people are more worried about China than Russia. There are still lots of Russians in Kazakhstan, especially in the north. Language politics are a big issue. Still, Nazarbayev is a very skilled diplomat and will be careful to maintain Kazakhstan’s independence while not upsetting anyone too much. Uzbekistan is tightly wound and Karimov even more so. They behave very erratically diplomatically and I wouldn’t be surprised to see them join and leave the Union a couple of times. Kyrgyzstan is similar to Kazakhstan in many ways. The Ferghana Valley (that they share with Uzbekistan) is rowdy but Bishkek and the north is still very culturally Russified. The leadership there is the most open in Central Asia but this has good and bad implications for the country’s stability. They stand to gain a lot economically from closer ties with Russia. Most developed countries’ citizens don’t need a visa to go to Kyrgyzstan, so I’d recommend it while that is available. Tajikistan is always in a bind and half of the working population lives in Russia already. You won’t hear Russian spoken there very much, though. They have the only legal Islamist party in Central Asia (last I checked) but it’s not popular. Turkmenistan was not mentioned for good reason. It’s new President is not as crazy as the previous one, but he is quite repressive. The USG is generally concerned with limiting Russia’s influence in Central Asia. That’s not really new. The implications for Central Asia itself, though, will be a lot more clear when the 2nd generation leadership takes over in Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/6 "2014-06-01T19:09:01Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Don’t really have much to add, but from what I’ve read, at least part of the reason for forming a customs union has come about because of China’s long-term plan to ship goods to Europe via Central Asia (rather than using an ocean route). So, they’re trying to make that more efficient by making sure the Chinese goods have only two customs-barriers to cross (EEU’s and EU’s)? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/7 "2014-06-01T19:37:58Z")
> [@](#): > > **Soviet menace reborn** No. The USSR was the other side of an ideological war; where’s the opposing ideology here? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/8 "2014-06-02T00:02:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. The USSR was the other side of an ideological war; where’s the opposing ideology here? It’s down to ordinary great-power politics now, competing spheres of influence, etc. Russia wants to be the hegemonic power in the old USSR the way the U.S. has always insisted on being the hegemonic power in the Western Hemisphere. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/9 "2014-06-02T17:02:15Z")
> [@nani](#): > > Belarus misses the USSR more than most and this does not change much. Now why is that, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/10 "2014-06-02T18:08:22Z")
**BrainGlutton** Belarus is an authoritarian socialist state, and they’ve taken fewer steps towards capitalism than the other republics. So they have a certain degree of ideological continuity with the Soviet Union, it’s unsurprising that they would miss it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/11 "2014-06-02T18:57:24Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **BrainGlutton** Belarus is an authoritarian socialist state, and they’ve taken fewer steps towards capitalism than the other republics. So they have a certain degree of ideological continuity with the Soviet Union, it’s unsurprising that they would miss it. But that wouldn’t make them a very good fit with Russia as it is now (a one-party authoritarian state, but with no particular ideology beyond Russian nationalism). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/12 "2014-06-02T23:00:42Z")
> [@](#): > > The Eurasian Economic Union: Soviet menace reborn, or just plain regional progress? So, are those the only two alternatives available? I don’t think it’s either the Soviet menace reborn OR plain regional progress. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/13 "2014-06-03T00:08:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, they’re trying to make that more efficient by making sure the Chinese goods have only two customs-barriers to cross (EEU’s and EU’s)? Yup. That’s the idea. I don’t know how much Chinese plans are responsible for driving this union, but it appears to be a consideration at least. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/14 "2014-06-03T01:52:16Z")
I can’t find a cite right now, but I am pretty sure I remember a poll showing that Belarusians still had a lot of attachments to a “Soviet” identity, even now. Soviet identity did involve stressing solidarity with Russians. The Belarus SSR Anthem, for one, mentions union with Russia and Kazakhstan SSR’s anthem straight up said “To the great Russian people, we say thank you!” ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/15 "2014-06-03T09:59:01Z")
I’m for anything that stymies increased Russian power and influence anywhere. I am especially in favor of hamstringing them as long as that means frustrating Vladimir Putin. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/16 "2014-06-03T13:41:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But that wouldn’t make them a very good fit with Russia as it is now (a one-party authoritarian state, but with no particular ideology beyond Russian nationalism). Russia’s authoritarian, but its not a one party state. Opposition parties exist, although they’re harassed and the media is somewhat censored. (It should be added that the biggest opposition party, the Communists, would be at least as authoritarian as Putin if they were in charge. Liberal democracy is just not super popular in Russia). Putin has been flirting with embracing a sort of conservative Christianity, and politicized Russian Orthodoxy as a guiding ideology, perhaps because he feels Russian nationalism isn’t enough. Along those lines, his spiritual advisor, Father Shevkunov, is a _very_ interesting character. Also, while Putin himself is a conservative and a man of the Right, he’s been happy to opportunistically support left wing regimes in Nicaragua, Venezuela and Belarus as a counterweight to western influence (which in my opinion we do need). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/17 "2014-06-03T13:42:09Z")
> [@nani](#): > > I can’t find a cite right now, but I am pretty sure I remember a poll showing that Belarusians still had a lot of attachments to a “Soviet” identity, even now. > > Soviet identity did involve stressing solidarity with Russians. The Belarus SSR Anthem, for one, mentions union with Russia and Kazakhstan SSR’s anthem straight up said “To the great Russian people, we say thank you!” Ideology aside, Russian is actually apparently the most widely spoken language in Belarus, and is co-official with Belarussian. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/18 "2014-06-03T14:05:16Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Russia’s authoritarian, but its not a one party state. Opposition parties exist, although they’re harassed and the media is somewhat censored. I know; I meant a “one-party state” in the sense that Mexico during the decades of PRI hegemony was a one-party state (i.e., only one party that could realistically hope to win most elections). > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Putin has been flirting with embracing a sort of conservative Christianity, and politicized Russian Orthodoxy as a guiding ideology, perhaps because he feels Russian nationalism isn’t enough. Along those lines, his spiritual advisor, Father Shevkunov, is a _very_ interesting character. “Interesting” like Rasputin was interesting? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/19 "2014-06-04T00:15:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I know; I meant a “one-party state” in the sense that Mexico during the decades of PRI hegemony was a one-party state (i.e., only one party that could realistically hope to win most elections). > > “Interesting” like Rasputin was interesting? Nah. Rasputin was ‘interesting’ in a sui generis, charismatic eccentric kind of way. Shevkunov is representative of a strain of thought that’s common in Russian history (the ‘Russia as New Byzantium’ stuff), he’s just unusual by ‘our’ standards. Famously, he directed and starred in a masterful 2008 documentary about the Fall of the Byzantine Empire, which argues that Byzantium fell because it was spiritually corrupted by the west and lost its reason for being. "Father Tikhon denies that he is anyone’s “ideologist”, but the label has begun to stick, especially after 2008, when Tikhon directed and starred in a documentary film and controversial political parable on the collapse of the Byzantine empire, shown three times during prime time on national TV: The Fall of an Empire – the Lesson of Byzantium. Russian hardliners are fond of the idea that Russia is “The Third Rome” – the inheritor of Byzantium’s fallen Orthodox greatness – and the message of the film does much to reinforce this historical connection, along with justifying in historical terms a profoundly anti-western world view. The Fall of an Empire glosses over the role of the Ottoman Turks, who conquered Constantinople in 1453, and instead argues that Byzantium rotted from within and succumbed to ideological predation by an envious west. The film charges that rather than sticking to its traditions, Byzantium reformed at the behest of western (Venetian) bankers…The west’s individualistic culture sapped Byzantine resolve and destroyed its hierarchical values. The public lost faith in their rulers." > **[Putin and the monk](https://www.ft.com/content/f2fcba3e-65be-11e2-a3db-00144feab49a)** > > How much influence does Father Tikhon Shevkunov have over the Russian president? ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743/20 "2014-06-04T01:58:20Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Ideology aside, Russian is actually apparently the most widely spoken language in Belarus, and is co-official with Belarussian. It’s pretty widely spoken in Kazakhstan too, especially in the North and in Almaty. Lots of people will also claim to be fluent in Kazakh when they actually aren’t. Russian legal status is more hazy but knowledge of Kazakh is used as an effective gatekeeper to keep the political elite ethnically Kazakh. Still, Russian schools are usually seen as better. Kazakhstan is extremely diverse, with lots of Koreans, Uzbeks, Poles, and others besides Russian. Stalin sent a lot of people there. Russian is the common language of inter-ethnic communication in Central Asia. In Bishkek, Russian is seen as more posh. Lots of young Kyrgyz women, especially, will speak Russian exclusively in public and Kyrgyz at home. I saw more than once friends who had claimed they only spoke Russian answer their cell phones and talk to their moms in Kyrgyz. A big factor that has spread the use of Kazakh in Kazakhstan (aside from many non-Kazakhs, especially Germans and Russians, leaving) is the arrival of repatriated ethnic Kazakhs (Oralman), especially from China or Mongolia. They often don’t speak Russian well or at all. I’ll take this opportunity to plug a great book: [For Prophet and Tsar: Islam and Empire in Russia and Central Asia.](http://www.amazon.com/For-Prophet-Tsar-Empire-Central/dp/0674032233) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eurasian-economic-union-soviet-menace-reborn-or-just-plain-regional-progress/689743.md?page=2)