# The Euro 2008 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 2, 2008, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453 "2008-06-02T10:16:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/81 "2008-06-10T00:35:34Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Spoiler alerts, people! Us 'merkins are still at work (or just getting home). :mad: [/QUOTE] Perdón. I’m not _really_ all that bright. Then again, how’s we open a thread that can comment on live matches as much of the world gets them\*? \*Yep. Bit of a knock on American footy interests. Awesome market. Incompetent marketers beyond little kids. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/82 "2008-06-10T04:31:48Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Even more than before. I’m surprised ESPN hasn’t sprung for Gazza or someone by now. I’m sure there are any number of ex-footballers who wouldn’t mind retiring to Connecticut. [/QUOTE] Be glad they haven’t thrown Chinaglia at us. He’s even worse than Smyth. [QUOTE=RedFury] Then again, how’s we open a thread that can comment on live matches as much of the world gets them\*? [/QUOTE] We get 'em live. Hup Holland! ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/83 "2008-06-10T07:27:10Z")
[QUOTE=Snarky\_Kong] Well you don’t agree with me. I think he should be considered onside. What reason other than sour grapes can you put forth as to why he should be offside? [/QUOTE] You appear to have neglected to read the crucial word “for” in my post. I said Panucci should have been considered **for** offside purposes, and thus van Nistelrooy should have been ruled onside. Which he was. Where you get the sour grapes bollocks is completely beyond me. I’m neither Dutch nor Italian and have no stake in the outcome whatsoever other than having enjoyed the match on its merits. ---
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/84 "2008-06-10T08:30:21Z")
Come on the Dutch! Watching Italy get spanked was almost as much fun as watching John Terry cry. I always had high hopes of them getting out of that group if they could avoid self-destructing. So far, so good. As someone in the pub pointed out, when that second goal went in you could almost see the look of horror on the Italian’s collective faces when they realised they were actually gonna have to _play football_ to come out of the game with anything, and not just rely on falling down a lot. 😃 The cry (after the first goal) of “Who the _fuck_ are you and what have you done with the _real_ Dirk Kuyt?!” From some random Liverpool fan at the back also made me chuckle. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/85 "2008-06-10T11:54:36Z")
I drew Romania in the sweepstake, which has a prize for worst-performing team in the tournament. In a group containing Holland, France, and Italy, this looked good for me - until the French forgot how to play the game. Grr. By the way, I didn’t actually watch the match, so this post does not necessarily bear any resemblance to reality :). ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/86 "2008-06-10T14:18:44Z")
I’ll be supporting that great team of “Anyone But Ronaldo,” but with a hope it is either the Dutchmen or the Spaniards who knock them out. I don’t want Portugal to lose to early, mind you, because that will limit the opportunity of other players to kick seven shades of shite out of him. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/87 "2008-06-10T15:02:53Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Perdón. I’m not _really_ all that bright. Then again, how’s we open a thread that can comment on live matches as much of the world gets them\*? [/QUOTE] We get them live too. We can’t _watch_ them live, though - at least not those of us with 9-5ish jobs ☹ I only said that since this thread is supposed to be inviting Americans to offer their opinions; obviously if it’s a regular Euro thread I don’t think you need to spoiler it. * * * Anyway, now that I’ve seen it myself, here are my thoughts on Holland - Italy: 1. Van Nistelroy was correctly ruled onside. The defender who was off the pitch was bundled off by his own keeper, not by a Dutchman; the linesman therefore made the correct ruling based on the spirit of the offside rule, if not the actual wording - and that’s good enough for me. 2. That could so very easily have finished 2-all or even 2-1, Italy. If Giovanni Van Bronckhorst hadn’t played, I’d say the Italians would almost certainly have won. He was the provider for the first goal, did most of the work in scoring the second, and was the architect and scorer of the third! Not to mention the fact that it was his clearance off the line that kept Holland from conceding an own goal. And obviously if not for Van der Sar’s spectacular save, Pirro’s free kick would have gone in and the third goal could never have happened. 3. I got the impression that the ref was a little bit generous to Italy. There was one maybe-penalty and at least two certain free kicks from the edge of the box that Toni was unlucky not to win. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/88 "2008-06-10T16:35:55Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] You appear to have neglected to read the crucial word “for” in my post. I said Panucci should have been considered **for** offside purposes, and thus van Nistelrooy should have been ruled onside. Which he was. [/quote] Gotcha. > [@](#): > > Where you get the sour grapes bollocks is completely beyond me. I’m neither Dutch nor Italian and have no stake in the outcome whatsoever other than having enjoyed the match on its merits. I was just putting that forth as the only explanation as for why somebody would think Ruud was offside. Nothing in your post suggested that you were upset with it, other than my misreading of your post. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/89 "2008-06-10T16:43:42Z")
[QUOTE=Snarky\_Kong] Well you don’t agree with me. I think he should be considered onside. What reason other than sour grapes can you put forth as to why he should be offside? [/QUOTE] I think, based on the letter of the rule, you can make a very convincing argument for him having been offside, and he _certainly_ thought he was- check out his astonished look at the linesman when he wheels away and then checks for the flag. As I said before, though, I think justice was done in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/90 "2008-06-10T17:12:47Z")
[QUOTE=Snarky\_Kong] I was just putting that forth as the only explanation as for why somebody would think Ruud was offside. Nothing in your post suggested that you were upset with it, other than my misreading of your post. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. Misunderstandings all round, then. L’chaim! > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > I think, based on the letter of the rule, you can make a very convincing argument for him having been offside… Having thought long and hard about this, and read the LOTG several times over, I think you can make a decent argument either way, but neither conclusively. Interesting to see UEFA’s official stance on it, which you can read [here](http://www.euro2008.uefa.com/news/kind=1/newsid=711341.html). I thought this: > [@UEFA General Secretary David Taylor](#): > > This is a widely-known interpretation of the offside law among referees that is not generally known by the wider football public. was spectacularly lame; what use after all is a rule that the wider football public can’t refer to? Who made this interpretation in the first place? Furthermore, this: > [@David Taylor](#): > > So let’s be clear – the referees’ team applied the law in the correct manner. If we did not have this interpretation of the player being off the pitch then what could happen is that the defending team could use the tactic of stepping off the pitch deliberately to play players offside, and that clearly is unacceptable. is just silly, since the official rules have an explicit case to deal with players who deliberately step off the pitch, which wasn’t the case here. But in the end, it’s hard to argue with this: > [@David Taylor](#): > > The most simple and practical interpretation of the law in this instance is the one that is adopted by referees throughout the world – that is that unless you have permission from the referee to be off the pitch, you are deemed to be on it and deemed to be part of the game. Sounds reasonable to me, even if the rules don’t explicitly say it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/91 "2008-06-10T17:26:58Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] Sounds reasonable to me, even if the rules don’t explicitly say it. [/QUOTE] That’s one of the differences between sport in America and sport elsewhere - you can apply common sense as a referee in the rest of the world, whereas if a referee used his brain in a manner not specifically allowed in the rules during an American sporting event the fans, players and coaches would be up in arms. See “playing advantage”, etc. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/92 "2008-06-10T18:01:25Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] I think, based on the letter of the rule, you can make a very convincing argument for him having been offside, and he _certainly_ thought he was- check out his astonished look at the linesman when he wheels away and then checks for the flag. As I said before, though, I think justice was done in the end. [/QUOTE] Why would any player who spent that long at Old Trafford be astonished at being allowed to score from what he thought was an offside position? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/93 "2008-06-10T18:04:13Z")
[QUOTE=villa] Why would any player who spent that long at Old Trafford be astonished at being allowed to score from what he thought was an offside position? 😃 [/QUOTE] Finally I understand your user name 😃 I’m as astonished that he was astonished as he was astonished, if you will - he’s always been a goalhanger. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/94 "2008-06-10T18:10:18Z")
Ah, playing advantage. I’d love to see much more of that in football, actually. In rugby, an advantage can last for some time while the ref waits to see if the fouled team actually gain one, so you can be pulled back for an offence that sometimes occurred a minute ago or more. In football, “playing advantage” is a split-second judgment that usually comes down to “is the break on?” This frequently leads to a) fouled teams actually losing out due to poor advantage calls, and b) players who have committed serious fouls escaping cautions. I think playing advantage should involve an actual advantage to the team fouled, not a possible one. I love it when you see a ref go back for a caution having played advantage, but it’s all too rare. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/95 "2008-06-10T18:19:40Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] Ah, playing advantage. I’d love to see much more of that in football, actually. In rugby, an advantage can last for some time while the ref waits to see if the fouled team actually gain one, so you can be pulled back for an offence that sometimes occurred a minute ago or more. In football, “playing advantage” is a split-second judgment that usually comes down to “is the break on?” This frequently leads to a) fouled teams actually losing out due to poor advantage calls, and b) players who have committed serious fouls escaping cautions. I think playing advantage should involve an actual advantage to the team fouled, not a possible one. I love it when you see a ref go back for a caution having played advantage, but it’s all too rare. [/QUOTE] Not so sure about that; it’s harder to tell if an advantage has been gained in rugby. In footy, once you see one guy on the ground and a bunch of defenders standing around trying to hack the ball away you can pretty quickly ascertain that no advantage is coming. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/96 "2008-06-10T19:13:21Z")
The distinction for me is that in rugby, the decision is deferred until an advantage has _been_ gained or not, whereas in football at present it’s simply whether an advantage _might_ be forthcoming. Just coming away with the ball shouldn’t constitute an advantage to my mind - if a player rides a foul tackle and makes it a few yards further but then loses the ball, they should go back, but all too rarely do. If anything it’s easier to call in rugby, since a simple territorial gain is a definite advantage. By contrast, in football the positional situation is much trickier to read, making it all the more important to wait and see if a genuine advantage occurred. On the other hand, penalties in rugby confer a much greater (or at least, a much more definite) advantage than free kicks do in football, so perhaps it’s just appropriate that more care is taken over skipping them. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/97 "2008-06-10T20:17:13Z")
One match is little to crow about – besides I saw things in our defending that left me a bit nervous. Having said that, with Xavi, Cesc, Iniesta, Silva, Senna and Alonso, I doubt there’s a better or deeper midfield out there. With an in form, demonic Villa and Torres’ speed up front (and Spain’s top goal scorer in La Liga, Guiza, on the bench to boot), won’t be easy to stop us from scoring – I certainly don’t see many/any teams that’ll be able to keep a clean sheet against us. Later Russia. Next up, Swedish Meatballs! Yummm. Aupa España! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/98 "2008-06-10T21:23:01Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] One match is little to crow about – besides I saw things in our defending that left me a bit nervous. Having said that, with Xavi, Cesc, Iniesta, Silva, Senna and Alonso, I doubt there’s a better or deeper midfield out there. With an in form, demonic Villa and Torres’ speed up front (and Spain’s top goal scorer in La Liga, Guiza, on the bench to boot), won’t be easy to stop us from scoring – I certainly don’t see many/any teams that’ll be able to keep a clean sheet against us. Later Russia. Next up, Swedish Meatballs! Yummm. Aupa España! [/QUOTE] _sigh_ You did it again. 😃 :mad: :smack: 😕 ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/99 "2008-06-10T21:31:42Z")
Well, this is a live event, after all. I obsessively refresh the BBC while the matches are on; I don’t mind knowing the result before watching the match. Besides, that lets me know which matches to fast-forward through. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453/100 "2008-06-10T21:39:47Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] _sigh_ You did it again. 😃 :mad: :smack: 😕 [/QUOTE] I really don’t see how you can come into a thread specifically for discussing the Euro, and be annoying that people are discussing the Euro. If you want to avoid spoilers, stay out of the thread! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-euro-2008/451453.md?page=6)