# The European Population Crash **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396 "2010-02-02T16:30:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/21 "2010-02-03T00:33:52Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > I taught high school in Poland from 1990-1992. Recently I was contacted by one of my former students and in asking her about those kids who I taught 20 years ago I was floored by how many of them have left the country. They are now living in Australia, Germany, England, South Africa, Ireland, Canada, etc. > > Now this was in a very small town in Poland, and these students were college-bound, But out of 15 or so that I asked about, all but 1 had left the county. These were the best and brightest, and now they are professionals in their mid-30s, benefiting countries other than Poland. > > It does not bode well for Poland. The level of Polish migration to Ireland has been remarkable since 2004. I’ve met Poles who came here to learn English and were stymied because everywhere they went for employment and whatnot the only other people working there were Polish. However, AFAIK, a significant number of migrants have already returned to Poland with money saved from working here, partly because times are better at home, and also because the Irish economy has imploded. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/22 "2010-02-03T00:49:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It seemed pretty obvious to me that it was using the town merely as its lens to talk about a larger trend that involved those cities. You have roundly ignored my counter-argument, which is that the TFR in EVERY European nation is dropping, so the argument that says that they are just moving elsewhere in Europe doesn’t take into account that there is NOWHERE in Europe where TFR isn’t below replacement rate. In the Eastern Bloc Nations it’s VERY low. Germany is kind of in the middle, Spain and Italy are worse than Germany. On the list of the countries with the lowest TFR, the bottom half-dozen are all in Asia, but the next dozen or more are all in Europe. Ugh, this is tiresome, probably why I don’t stray into GD too much. Anyway, saying that TFR is dropping in European countries is not an argument, it is a statement of fact, one that I have acknowledged in every post I made in this thread so far. The implications of this fact are not that all of Europe will look like Hoyerswerda, and they are not quite disastrous enough to warrant speaking of European demographics as a ‘population crash’. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/23 "2010-02-03T01:37:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Depends on how one views Western Civilization I suppose. [Apparently there’s some confusion even as to how to **define** it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=550518) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/24 "2010-02-03T01:51:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Great post except for two things. > > In the CIA World Factbook there is a data point which is TFR+immigration-deaths. That’s the growth rate, which I mentioned with both Germany and Poland. Germany’s death rate is higher than Poland’s because Germany’s population is older on average, even so, Poland has a net loss on the growth rate. Just FYI. > > Second, there is no reverse brain drain in the US. The Chinese, Koreans, Japanese and Indians are sending American universities boatloads of kids, and a lot of those kids are starting up businesses and staying in America. We have the laboratory and university infrastructure that is still the finest in the world. The bigger worry to have is whether or not American students can compete for the slots at the top American Univerisities because the schools are not increasing their student body at the same rate as they are increasing the populations they draw from. It doesn’t matter how good the Chinese University Systems are getting, Harvard, Yale, MIT and Berkeley still mean something in Asia, and that isn’t going to change anytime soon. This particular worry I think is off-base. The problem is we have immigration to wealthy nations, but once developing nations reach a certain level of wealth (around $5000 per capita), their TFR drops to replacement levels or below too. And more and more countries reach that threshold all the time. So immigration can only delay the massive demographic changes the world is undergoing. The wealthy west can pull people from Africa or Asia, but once those areas reach a certain baseline of GDP their TFRs will fall below replacement levels too. So within 60 years this is going to be a global problem. There will be too few kids and too many elderly virtually everywhere. There actually is a reverse brain drain though. It is due to a variety of factors. Job and entrepreneur prospects are better at home than in the US, so people are getting educations and then going back home. [http://www.pascalsview.com/pascalsview/2009/03/new-study-shows-america-is-losing-the-best-and-the-brightest-foreign-entrepreneurs.html](http://www.pascalsview.com/pascalsview/2009/03/new-study-shows-america-is-losing-the-best-and-the-brightest-foreign-entrepreneurs.html) > [@](#): > > “What many people do not realize is that these foreign nationals are making a job, not taking a job,” said Wadhwa. “According to research by the National Science Foundation, foreign students received more than 60 percent of all engineering doctorates and more than half of all science and mathematics doctorates awarded in the United States. That’s a lot of talent to lose to other countries.” > > According to the findings, many respondents do not wish to live in the United States permanently, with 55 percent of Indian, 40 percent of Chinese and 30 percent of European students reporting that they want to return home within five years. This shows a stark reversal from past retention rates. In the past, greater than 75 percent of Indian and Chinese students who received science and engineering advanced degrees in the United States remained in the country for extended periods or permanently. > Among the study’s findings: > > • A key impetus behind students’ intentions to depart is the fear that they will not be able to find a job in the United States upon graduation and their growing belief that the U.S. economy will lag global growth rates in the near future. > > • Chinese students, in particular, strongly feel the best job opportunities lie in their home country—52 percent said their home country has the best job opportunities versus 32 percent of Indian respondents and 26 percent of Europeans respondents. This contrasts starkly with the beliefs of most skilled immigrants in the 1980s and 1990s that the best opportunities were in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/25 "2010-02-03T03:35:10Z")
There have been some increases in Eastern European countries recently. Overall, countries need to make it easier for educated women to be able to take time out to have children (paid parental leave, day care subsidies etc). > [@](#): > > So as you can see, the CIA World Factbook tfr estimates fail to align with the recent and significant increase in the number of births, particularly in Poland. Also, in each country, the number of births so far in 2009 is between 5% and 7% more than the number of births in the same period of 2008. > > None of this is to say that these countries don’t face demographic problems, which they clearly do. Nor has there been any corresponding increase in birth rates for native Italians or Germans over the past five years. Still, the demographic situation in many Eastern European countries has improved significantly over recent years, and continues to improve. And Germany, at least, the most populated country in Europe, appears to finally be taking its low birth rate seriously and implementing policies borrowed from the French, who have enjoyed replacement level fertility in recent years. The demographic situation in Europe is serious; but there is optimism that the continent will not go gentle in that good night. [http://congenialtimes.blogspot.com/2009/11/twilight-of-secular-europe-maybe-maybe.html](http://congenialtimes.blogspot.com/2009/11/twilight-of-secular-europe-maybe-maybe.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/26 "2010-02-03T03:49:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Then maybe we should strive to bring up the educational level of the third world nations to even it all out. They do try to do that. Populations seem to have different average levels of ability for education though. That’s another reason low fertility in Asian or European countries is bad news. They’re the only ones that have average iq of 100 or more. If they decline it will be bad news for all countries. ---
**Author:** ![lemac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f19dbf/32.png) [@lemac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lemac)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/27 "2010-02-03T11:35:16Z")
[Here](http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tsdde220&plugin=0)’s a table of TFR in the 27 EU countries plus 6 others from 1997-2008 by Eurostat. Fertility rate is increasing in the majority of countries, and Ireland and Iceland have reached replacement levels in 2008 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/28 "2010-02-03T15:03:38Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The problem is we have immigration to wealthy nations, but once developing nations reach a certain level of wealth (around $5000 per capita), their TFR drops to replacement levels or below too. And more and more countries reach that threshold all the time. So immigration can only delay the massive demographic changes the world is undergoing. The wealthy west can pull people from Africa or Asia, but once those areas reach a certain baseline of GDP their TFRs will fall below replacement levels too. So within 60 years this is going to be a global problem. There will be too few kids and too many elderly virtually everywhere. > > There actually is a reverse brain drain though. It is due to a variety of factors. Job and entrepreneur prospects are better at home than in the US, so people are getting educations and then going back home. > > [http://www.pascalsview.com/pascalsview/2009/03/new-study-shows-america-is-losing-the-best-and-the-brightest-foreign-entrepreneurs.html](http://www.pascalsview.com/pascalsview/2009/03/new-study-shows-america-is-losing-the-best-and-the-brightest-foreign-entrepreneurs.html) What your cite says basically is that 60% of Chinese Science students are staying. 45% of Indians. So really your cite doesn’t say that we are experiencing reverse brain drain at all. What it says is that a proportion of those students return to their countries, which ultimately is a good thing because it will advance science and expand the possibilities for science grads worldwide. For it to be brain drain we’d have to see our students leaving, and very few of the foreign students staying. We aren’t seeing that. It also, doesn’t acknowledge what the relative number of students that come to America for that purpose are. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/29 "2010-02-03T17:12:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So sure, we can point at immigration, but it’s important to know where immigration comes from. That immigration will of course change the nature of European culture. As it comes from the East it will change the culture in more minor ways, as it comes from outside of Europe it will change the cultures more dramatically. If people immigrate from somewhere else, it stands to reason that there were too many people there. So immigration is a net benefit all around; countries in need of people gain some, and countries with too many people ease their burden a bit. Otherwise, the immigration wouldn’t be happening! The only thing left is this “Oh my god, the _culture_ will change!!” bullshit. Cultures constantly change all the time. As long as it isn’t at the point of a sword or the muzzle of a rifle, it’s all good. Can you meaningfully say that the “Western” culture of 100 years ago is still around, but that Muslim immigration will totally destroy it? King Edward and Archduke Ferdinand would be sickened by the current “Western” culture with or without Islamic influence. It is purely xenophobia to be afraid of another culture when nobody is forcing you to conform to it. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/30 "2010-02-03T17:29:39Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > If people immigrate from somewhere else, it stands to reason that there were too many people there. So immigration is a net benefit all around; countries in need of people gain some, and countries with too many people ease their burden a bit. Otherwise, the immigration wouldn’t be happening! The only thing left is this “Oh my god, the _culture_ will change!!” bullshit. > > Cultures constantly change all the time. As long as it isn’t at the point of a sword or the muzzle of a rifle, it’s all good. Can you meaningfully say that the “Western” culture of 100 years ago is still around, but that Muslim immigration will totally destroy it? King Edward and Archduke Ferdinand would be sickened by the current “Western” culture with or without Islamic influence. It is purely xenophobia to be afraid of another culture when nobody is forcing you to conform to it. Its all well and good to talk about the values of tolerance, but the Muslim population in Western Europe isn’t always integrating well. I don’t know tons about it, but I thought there were problems with concepts like womens rights, children’s rights, religious rights, honor killings, etc. Western concepts (secularism, democracy, individualism and individual liberty) are valid concepts people should be free to uphold. And I don’t think people immigrate because of there being too much or too little population, most seems to be about economics or desire to escape persecution. > [@](#): > > It is purely xenophobia to be afraid of another culture when nobody is forcing you to conform to it. Howso? For those of us who enjoy secularism, women’s rights, minority rights, freedom of speech, there is a worry that immigration by people who do not have those same values (and who feel comfortable forcing them on others) could lead to problems. How many women, non-believers and minorities are forced to do and behave in ways they do not want to by certain Islamist sectors? That is the problem. If there were a subset of Muslims who had authoritarian attitudes towards women and minorities, but all of those women and minorities made a voluntary decision to accept that treatment and understood that they have other options, that would be fine. But my impression is that is not the case. In the US, I am also offended by the christian right which does the same thing. They want to deny rights to gay people and women. Its one thing when certain gays or women voluntarily choose to give up their rights. But the christian fundamentalists want to forcibly take those rights away from them. Its not the same thing. So I try to keep the christian fundamentalists out of power in my particular sphere of politics. I don’t think that is xenophobia. When you have an authoritarian subgroup whose values are different from yours who you have valid reason to feel would prefer to force others to live under their values (w/o their consent), then that is a problem. Then again as a liberal I support certain authoritarian measures myself. I feel private industry should be regulated whether it wants to be or not as an example. Certain values like secularism, individualism, individual liberty, scientism, modernity etc need to be defended because they made the world we live in possible. If people can immigrate w/o attacking those values, then go for it. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/31 "2010-02-03T17:54:49Z")
Yeah, when Muslims in Europe persecute women and institute Sharia law, I’m right behind you in denouncing it. So far, no country in Europe has attacked “secularism, individualism, individual liberty, scientism, modernity”. And no one has even suggested that the culture is heading in that direction. I would suggest otherwise; that most Muslim immigrants are moving in order to take advantage of those values, not in opposition to them. So far, the only attacks on those values come from European governments themselves, banning veils and minarets. Basically, your defense is a strawman, because Muslims aren’t forcing their culture on Europeans, in fact quite the opposite. So again, when no one is forcing you to adhere to their culture, it is purely xenophobia to be afraid of it. On the other hand, European Muslims look to have good reasons to be afraid of “Western” culture and its tendency towards religious bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/32 "2010-02-04T00:37:52Z")
Consider for instance the fact that Britain has allowed Sharia law courts to operate which tend to give settlements in favour of the husband. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/33 "2010-02-04T02:22:05Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Consider for instance the fact that Britain has allowed Sharia law courts to operate which tend to give settlements in favour of the husband. I am against this. However, it is simply another form of voluntary arbitration and no one is being forced by the _government_ to submit to Sharia law in the UK. People may be forced into it by their husbands or their mosques, which is why I disagree with it, but you cannot point to it as an example of Muslim culture forcing itself on Westerners. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/34 "2010-02-04T02:25:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I am against this. However, it is simply another form of voluntary arbitration and no one is being forced by the _government_ to submit to Sharia law in the UK. People may be forced into it by their husbands or their mosques, which is why I disagree with it, but you cannot point to it as an example of Muslim culture forcing itself on Westerners. The fact that politicians approved of it makes it at least partially so. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/35 "2010-02-04T02:38:13Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > They do try to do that. Populations seem to have different average levels of ability for education though. That’s another reason low fertility in Asian or European countries is bad news. They’re the only ones that have average iq of 100 or more. If they decline it will be bad news for all countries. You are aware, I hope, that there is no hard scientific evidence of any **hereditary** intelligence differential between different “racial” groups however defined. (I’ve run [GD threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264439) on this question and nobody could come up with any. If you’ve got some, bring it. But [_The Bell Curve_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_bell_curve) doesn’t pass muster.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/36 "2010-02-04T02:40:06Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The fact that politicians approved of it makes it at least partially so. :dubious: Erm, no it doesn’t, **Curtis.** The authorities saying, “Go ahead, you guys can solve disputes among yourself by your own traditions instead of going to our courts” is not even partially “an example of Muslim culture forcing itself on Westerners.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/37 "2010-02-04T04:44:12Z")
Europe managed to survive a population crash from the Black Plague and two World Wars. I’m sure it will be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/38 "2010-02-04T04:53:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Brainglutton wrote: > > You are aware, I hope, that there is no hard scientific evidence of any hereditary intelligence differential between different “racial” groups however defined. (I’ve run GD threads on this question and nobody could come up with any. If you’ve got some, bring it. But The Bell Curve doesn’t pass muster.) I’m aware that the relevant gene alleles haven’t been identified so you can’t as of yet compare their distribution across populations. However, as William Saletan pointed out last year, “research is constantly finding new gene-trait correlations and group differences.” This point is also explained by Phycisist Steve Hsu who discusses recent genome change and different clusters. [Information Processing: "No scientific basis for race"](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-scientific-basis-for-race.html) Also, see the research by the likes of Scott Williamson, Bruce Lahn or Benjamin Voight showing recent selection of certain genes that appear involved in neurological function in some way (DAB1, ASPM-MCPH1, SLC6A4). They’re not related to intelligence but those are just early findings and it suggests that the brain isn’t off limits to recent change. In terms of current arguments the environmental explanations like socioeconomic differences, or cultural differences were examined in the June 2005 in the journal Psychology, Public Policy, and Law. There’s a lot of indirect evidence from adoption studies, reaction time measures, brain size data and so on which suggests the differences are partly heritable. You can read the various papers here. www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/ - The paper on Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence is also interesting in showing how selection could work over a relatively short period. [http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf](http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/39 "2010-02-04T06:19:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Europe managed to survive a population crash from the Black Plague and two World Wars. I’m sure it will be fine. FTW. Also consider… People today are generally healthier and more energetic for longer in their lives. They don’t get worn out young from hard manual labour, and we have better health care. So a rising proportion of 65+ year-olds is not necessarily a problem. Each worker today is more productive than the worker of 20, 50, 100 years previously, due to improved technology. So again it doesn’t matter so much if we have more elderly people to support - we also have a greater capacity to support them. At least some of the fertility-rate decline in high-density developed countries is due to the population pressure itself - people not having more children because they simply don’t have the living space to fit them in. Obviously an actual decline in population would alleviate some of that pressure. Not to mention the fact that at _some_ point, the world does have to bite the bullet and cease increasing population. Not necessarily now. 6 billion may be the limit. Maybe its 12 billion, maybe 20 billion. But a stable or decreasing population is not necessarily anything to be frightened of. It’s just different. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396/40 "2010-02-05T01:46:43Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > FTW. > > Also consider… > > People today are generally healthier and more energetic for longer in their lives. They don’t get worn out young from hard manual labour, and we have better health care. So a rising proportion of 65+ year-olds is not necessarily a problem. > > Each worker today is more productive than the worker of 20, 50, 100 years previously, due to improved technology. So again it doesn’t matter so much if we have more elderly people to support - we also have a greater capacity to support them. > > At least some of the fertility-rate decline in high-density developed countries is due to the population pressure itself - people not having more children because they simply don’t have the living space to fit them in. Obviously an actual decline in population would alleviate some of that pressure. > > Not to mention the fact that at _some_ point, the world does have to bite the bullet and cease increasing population. Not necessarily now. 6 billion may be the limit. Maybe its 12 billion, maybe 20 billion. But a stable or decreasing population is not necessarily anything to be frightened of. It’s just different. A work force that can’t support the European social democratic system is something to be worried about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-european-population-crash/527396.md?page=3)