There was a man( if I remember right) it was in Bali, He helped reduce the povery level buy teaching the people to use condoms etc. He showed them that if they just had 2 children the food they raised on the few acres they had would keep their family in food and have a little extra, the less mouths to feed the further the food went. The more they were able to control the size of the family the more they prospered, after a time there was less poverty.
The standard of living raises if there are less mouths to feed.
In Africa there are thousands dying of hunger, yes, some is because of government control, but if the people who had 5 starving children only had one or two or none there would be less starving to death.
Smaller families are able to better afford to give their children a better education etc. I believe to have children you canot afford to care for, physically, emotionally,financialy is a far worse wrong that practicing birth control. I know so many who went through just a family and it was not a good thing. even though they went to church every Sunday some of the children got in trouble and some got on drugs. If a parent does not have the ability to be a good parent in all ways they should refrain from having children.
Crime rate around the world causes a lot of poverty and every society is effected.
As I have read the Bible through at least 20 times or more in my life time I see that Jesus made no claim that He was more divine than any other human; When accused of Blasphmey because he called God His father he refered to the psalmist who is qouted as saying, " I say you are Gods, sons of rhe Most High".
He also often said My father and yours. Taught them to pray Our Father. He never implied that they would be adopted sons of God. The Essenes also called them selves sons of God, or sons of light.
The only way Jesus could be all God and all man is if Man is also God.
Just as some religions say Jesus said this ‘is’ My Body and This 'is my blood at the last supper so they believe it was really Jesus flesh and blood they ate and drank, Yet in the same principle if a lover tells the beloved ,“here is my heart take it and say we will never part”, the lover is not really giving it’s heart, but is symbolic.
Which is my point. (But in the one thread where we did debate some about your religious views, flower power is how it came across to me. Maybe you could start a thread, “Ask the lekattist”.)
The part in the Bible that some Christians say prove that Jesus was God is where Jesus said “I and the father are one.” It is in John 10:30, and prompts them to believe Jesus was God. But in the context it was said that was not the whole meaning of the phrase. The phrase was referring to the Oneness of God in which we are all a part. It goes with the phrase you quoted. “I say you are Gods, sons of the Most High”.
I have never used the word flower power, that is old hippie talk. If that is how you took it, you misunderstood. I don’t think that thread would pass the mods.
It wouldn’t be a major hi-jack of this thread if you would briefly define what “God” is to you so we can examine the truth value of your statement that’s God’s existence is up to me. It’s more of a hi-jack to be vague about it and cause others to post in opposition.
No need to start another thread; I’ve already determined that you’re wrong that God’s existence is up to me.
If ‘everything’ is everything that actually exists, then those things exist whether or not I believe they do. Your definition of God does not have an existence that relies on my belief or me in general.
Your logic in this post is entirely unconvincing to me, and I bet it would be unconvincing to anyone who truly understands any major religion. The reason is that you’re operating under a misconception about the point of prayer. I have a feeling that if you could understand this, you’d understand not only the prayer issue but many other issues that we’ve touched on in this thread.
In your argument, you basically view God as a trader. He wants certain things from us–prayers, devotions, evangelism, service, and so forth–and offers things in exchange–healing, prosperity, eternal life, and so forth. Everything is traded on a specific and measured basis, this many units of this for that many units of that. In a sense this is basically a capitalist view, where a payments of a certain amount buys you a product or service of a certain amount.
The problem with this view is that it is completely incorrect. In fact, Jesus specifically noted that it is incorrect with a parable in which a group of workers does different amounts of work, but they all get paid the same amount. So the message is clear. God’s rewards are not distributed out in proportion to the amount of work that’s done in his name. Rather, they will be readily made available to any person who wants to accept them. Hence no amount of statistics piled on to “prove” that God is not rewarding those who pray more can actually prove anything.
(Although statistics that compare one country to another would not prove anything in any case. Christians pray for the entire world; see the Prayers of the People in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer for one of countless examples.)
So if you think that Christians are praying with the expectation of being rewarded with prosperity, you’re wrong. We’re not. Likewise we’re not expecting to be rewarded with any other earthly reward. So it must be eternal life, then? Nope, we don’t believe that we have to hit a certain number of prayers.
Jesus’s message is about the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is not a physical place, but rather a state of being where a person is in union with God.
[Luke, 17:20-21]
Prayers is intended to aid the individual in establishing the Kingdom of God within, not for improving anything outside himself or herself. To that end, prayer helps people organize their priorities, sort out their feelings, create a ritual which makes them focus on spiritual topics, and many other things. The purpose is expressed in this famous hymn:
Note that nowhere does it claim that God will answer each prayer on a one-for-one basis. Some people may believe that God has answered some of their individual prayers and I’m certain not going to insist that they’re wrong. But not at any time has that been the driving force behind Christian prayer.
Nor is this any sort fo dodge invented recently to escape the scientific method or whatnot. This is what Jesus taught, and what Christians have believed since the beginning. The author of the hymn above, William Walford, was both blind and dirt poor, so he obviously knew that God does not toss gifts of perfect health and prosperity to everyone who asks. Obviously everybody knows that, and always has.
You say that people pray mostly for happiness, health, and wealth. I don’t believe it. I pray mainly for forgiveness, guidance, and encouragement. Most formal prayers in offical church liturgy are for the same. Look at the Lord’s Prayer. How many lines refer to happiness, health, and wealth? Either zero or one, depending on how you interpret.
If you want to have any successful communication with religious people, you first need to understand what we believe. From what you’ve posted in this thread, it’s clear that you currently don’t. Religion is not a business where you pay something and get something in return, either in this life or in the next life. I expect eternal life, but if I learned that there is no eternal life it would not affect my faith or my behavior in any way.
These are just a few. You’re going to have to provide some nice big hefty cites to show that prayer is pretty much anything but asking god for something, especially if you want us to believe that Christians do not believe this. That’s pretty much what I was taught prayer was for growing up. Yes, asking for things like forgiveness, guidance, and encouragement were there, but those are also most assuredly asking god for something.
It does seem that way doesn’t it. But you might consider what people think compared to what is real. Beliefs are very powerful, they determine your future. As for prayer, I think it is only for giving thanks for the things you already have, and guidance to know the path before you.
So far as I am aware, most people pray because they want something in particular to happen and not simply to arrange their day and priorities. Perhaps they’re not supposed to, but that is still what they are expecting out of it. So it may be a straw man argument in your case, but I think valid for most.
Your version, however, is still being entirely matched by the same data. You’re saying that prayer gives people a chance to get their priorities in line and plan ahead and so on and so forth. Well, that’s for the sake of improving ones health, life satisfaction, and personal wealth. Regardless of whether people are supposed to be planning ahead or making wishes to God, it does not appear to have a positive effect at a societal level.
The problem–I would say–is that Christianity (or any religion) prescribes particular values. Giving people time to reflect on the wrong values and strengthen their will to follow those precisely is rather a cruel task.
Usually being given time to sit around and contemplate life and what to do about it would be a good thing. I’d probably encourage people to do so, but they should be doing it in the influence of lots of conflicting ideas from which they can sort. The person who has all of the ideas of every philosopher and religion to date from Confucius and Jesus to John Locke and Adam Smith, coupled with economic and social surveys of current life is going to be able to come to better conclusions than someone who trashes all of any of that which conflicts with something he told was absolutely true since he was a child.
And yes, I’m sure that your church says that you should consider all information from all sources, but at the same time they’ll give a little wink wink nudge nudge that it’s a sin to use stem cells for research. That’s just being dishonest.
Religion’s “absolute” nature runs at complete odds to prayer as you define it. People should be able to evaluate life based on the real world and all the ideas that man have ever had, not just the ideas that one guy had as pertaining to life thousands of years ago.
And let me add that prayer for the sake of spirituality is a self-feeding loop that goes from nowhere to nothing unless you’ve got something behind it, which is why I’m dealing with tangibles.
Thanks **Monavis **. That’s pretty much the same conclusion I came to after asking some questions and doing the research. The Jesus presented in the Bible, is an example for us to follow in the principles he taught and lived. If God is then we are all his children, metaphorically speaking. A lot of variations are possible as we interpret the Bible. People can claim , this verse is literal while this verse is not.
Thanks again for the verses. It shows that Jesus said more than the verses we hear repeated so often.
What does how easily I can make determinations have to do with anything? You make the silly statement that God is defined as “everything”, which by that definition, I don’t know any atheists and any talk about God is meaningless, and then you make the nonsensical statement what exists is dependent on me. Of course what I believe is up to me. Make irrational statements and I won’t believe them.
That’s fine, you can think whatever you want, but saying that this is what Christians have always believed is going to require a bit more evidence than the lyrics to one hymn.