# The evil that is Ashcroft: Gvt. report says detainees were abused **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869 "2003-06-23T21:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/41 "2003-06-24T15:26:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Is that what you’re saying? 'cause it’s really hard to discern from your post. \*\* Perhaps it’d be easier to discern if you read it in the context. Maybe if I’d followed my comment with a 😉 or a 😃 rather than a :rolleyes:, my intent would be less subtle. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/42 "2003-06-24T15:32:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **Nobody cares about the Arab men who were apprehended after September 11** I wouldn’t say **nobody** cares (obviously some posters here do), but it’s surprising how little of a stink is being raised in the real world. And I’m ashamed how many of my fellow Dems are taking this lying down. Of course, I could start by blaming myself. I’ll have to give serious thought to writing Kennedy and Kerry and Frank expressing my concern. But I don’t think they’re the ones that need convincing. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/43 "2003-06-24T15:33:19Z")
If they declared martial law? no. However, once it was also specified that ‘martial law= no elections’ there would be a great hugh and outcry. and, as bad as I think things can get, I do **not** believe that if there were massive protests of the sort that would occur w/‘no elections’ being the case, that the PTB would not take it to the next step (of forcing an armed resistence of the population). Hence, my belief that “there won’t be an election” is hyperbole of the most hysterical kind. Yes, Ashcraft is looking to suspend civil rights all over the place and yes, that bothers me, and yes, I am very concerned not only over the actions of this administration but at the great quantities of folks out there who have no problem w/the actions of the administration. But. say you’re taking away the vote, and even those folks who don’t vote, havent’ registered etc, would be making loud noises. MHO. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/44 "2003-06-24T15:36:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > So, are you saying that I’m worn, that the majority of American DO vote? That right this minute they are heavily engaged in public discourse, aghast at what the government is doing in their name?_\* Well, I think for the most part, the majority of Americans agree with what the government is doing in their name. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/45 "2003-06-24T15:55:24Z")
I’m aware that there’s no forcefield protecting my vote. However, that’s a far cry from meaning it’s easily removed. I disagree with your contention that no-one cares about internments and deportations. Such people are sadly in the minority, but such is the way of the world when something is not directly affecting people, in the most case. Perhaps you want riots on the streets until this behaviour stops; maybe that would be preferable, but it’s not happening because the actions of the government are not, as yet, impinging on the day-to-day lives of the vast majority of the populace. And yet there _is_ scrutiny, and there _is_ dissent, as the article in the OP clearly shows. And it’s not just in the populace, it’s in the government. No, committees and rebukes aren’t as dramatic as civil unrest, but they may get the job done just as well. To answer your question, of course I think significant resistance to martial law would be mounted. I don’t believe it would be instant or physical, but I believe the populace would very quickly start demanding damn good reasons, and not some nebulous hand-waving. I’d like to qualify this, though, because I think the chances of martial law being imposed are infinitesimal. Essentially, I believe martial law and electoral suspensions would affect enough people to have an immediate and dramatic result in terms of popular opinion. Interning aliens does not. This is of course tragic, but comparisons to martial law merely make such transgressions seem all the less extreme, precisely the opposite of what you want to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/46 "2003-06-24T15:58:34Z")
Sorry, I was unclear: for “instant or physical” read “instant or necessarily physical at first”. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/47 "2003-06-24T16:12:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dead Badger \* > \*\*I think the chances of martial law being imposed are infinitesimal. \*\* All at once, true. But one could argue that it’s happening little by little, in non-alarming stages. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/48 "2003-06-24T16:16:04Z")
To use an extremely worn analogy, the water is getting warm, but the frog thinks that it’s merely the summer air. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/49 "2003-06-24T16:23:11Z")
and, hence my comment that I don’t even necessarily think that the public in general would get real riled at some level of marshall law being imposed. however I still maintain that there’s two things that **would** in fact get masses moving - 1. ANnounce the suspension of elections (even if only a small minority vote) 2. Announce the confiscation of guns (not to take this into 2nd amendment territory). And, as bad as I think the current admin is, I believe that if there were a massive upraising, where even the Fox pundits were decrying the loss of liberty, where there were massive general protests which included the Dixie Chicks singing to Charleton Heston, I believe they’d back down, vs. putting down such protests with arms and arrests. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/50 "2003-06-24T16:23:50Z")
Well that’s very nice, but I’d say the frog is darkly muttering about how it was cooler in the old days. You’re making out like absolutely no-one gives a shit, which clearly isn’t true. A lack of rioting does not equal acceptance, and the patriotism dividend of war will not last for ever. It’s not even like the goverment are acting in concert over this, something you’ve completely ignored. From above: > [@](#): > > Ashcroft was called to task – at times even excoriated – by lawmakers who took issue with what the report described as the incarceration of illegal immigrants with no proven links to terrorism for as long as 200 days, deportations of more than 500 of them, and mistreatment of prisoners. People _do_ care. The end of the world is less nigh than you think… ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/51 "2003-06-24T16:25:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*To use an extremely worn analogy, the water is getting warm, but the frog thinks that it’s merely the summer air. \*\* Exactly the analogy I was hinting at. But why would a frog think the water is air? Unless it’s one of those ill-informed American frogs, of course. They’ll believe anything. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/52 "2003-06-24T16:32:52Z")
I once would have thought that it was impossible for a POTUS to lie his way into a war, get _caught at it_ and get away with it. I once would have thought it would be impossible to round people up in the dead of night, hold them without charges, deny them attorneys and hold secret trials without a peep of resistance from the masses. This is not the same nation any more. We have had our most basic protections permanently stripped away. (you don’t really think the government’s ever going to give those rights back, do you?) There’s a story in another thread about a man facing six months in prison because he held up a “No blood for oil” sign at a Bush ralley. If Clinton or Gore had done any of these things conservatives would have been apoplectic. This just shows the hypocrisy of the conservative media in that they apologize for, cover for, obfuscate, pettifog and ignore the abuses of the Bush administration. what’s so crazy about the idea that the Bushies would tamper with an election? They’ve already _done_ that, remember? Do I seriously believe the next election will be the last? I would say I’m 99% sure that it won’t be…but I’m not 100% sure…and maybe 99% is a little over confident. I just hope this idiot cowboy doesn’t start a nuclear war. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/53 "2003-06-24T16:34:51Z")
> [@](#): > > But why would a frog think the water is air? Unless it’s one of those ill-informed American frogs, of course. They’ll believe anything. Well, the frog would be thinking that the summer air would be heating the water, but you know what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/54 "2003-06-24T16:39:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Well, the frog would be thinking that the summer air would be heating the water, but you know what I meant. \*\* Ah. I thought it might be a humidity thing. In the past few days, I’d buy that. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/55 "2003-06-24T16:41:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > **There’s a story in another thread about a man facing six months in prison because he held up a “No blood for oil” sign at a Bush ralley.** Got a link? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/56 "2003-06-24T16:51:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tdn \* > \*\*Got a link? \*\* [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192950](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192950) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/57 "2003-06-24T17:14:13Z")
Thanks, **Dioge**. That thread passed me by. I find some small bit of irony thinking back on some of Bush’s speeches when he said the terrorists “Hate us for our freedom.” ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/58 "2003-06-24T18:13:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > however I still maintain that there’s two things that **would** in fact get masses moving - > > 1. ANnounce the suspension of elections (even if only a small minority vote) How about if it goes something like this: > [@](#): > > CNN - A few weeks before the election: > > It was announced today that, because of threats of imminent terrorist attacks, the election will be temporarily suspended. > > A spokesman for the White House said, "It is just a temporary measure. We have many credible intelligence reports that terrorists are planning a major attack on numerous locations across the country. > > We cannot risk the lives of American citizens until we are certain that the terrorists are no longer a threat. Once that threat is over, the elections will be held. > > Hail Bush." ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869/59 "2003-06-24T18:20:36Z")
That could be tried, but I don’t think that it would work. After all, they didn’t cancel the SuperBowl, and that’d be a hellava lot easier target than hitting a gazillion polling places. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evil-that-is-ashcroft-gvt-report-says-detainees-were-abused/183869.md?page=2)