# The evolution of "fanny" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 14, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219 "2011-12-14T20:24:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/1 "2011-12-14T20:24:28Z")
Just wondering: in America, fanny is an innocuous, somewhat childish term for the butt. In England, and Australia, and probably other English-speaking countries as well, fanny is a crude term for female genitalia. How did the American fanny go from front to back and rude to something you’d say to a class of kindergarteners? Did the meaning and the politeness level change at the same time, or did one come before the other? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/2 "2011-12-14T20:29:40Z")
I don’t know the answer but I wanted to add to your thread - don’t ever say “fannypack” to an Englishman. Oo boy, he will never stop mocking you. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/3 "2011-12-14T20:52:12Z")
The OED isn’t much help, giving ‘origin unknown’ for both British and American senses. FWIW the earliest cites are for the British sense. Here’s the entry with a few early cites. > [@](#): > > fanny, n.4 > > Etymology: Orig. unknown. > slang. > > 1. = backside n. 3 (orig. and chiefly U.S.). > > 1928 B. Hecht & C. MacArthur Front Page ii. 115 Parking her fanny in here. > 1930 N. Coward Private Lives i, You’d fallen on your fanny a few moments before. > > 1. The female genitals. (Chiefly British English.) > > 1879 Pearl I. 82 You shan’t look at my fanny for nothing. > 1889 A. Barrère & C. G. Leland Dict. Slang I. 354/2 Fanny (common), the fem. pud. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/4 "2011-12-14T22:01:15Z")
America isn’t the only place where “fanny” = “buttocks”. Look up the game of _petanque_ and the usage of the term “fanny” there. I have no idea of the relationship betwween these terms, but, clearly, there’s more to the history of “fanny” than simply Americans swtiching around the British terms. Has the British slang term _always_ referred strictly to genitalia? Or has this been a case where a term for general unspeakables got restricted to one area in Britain (and other English-speaking countries) and a different are in America? ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/5 "2011-12-14T22:40:22Z")
In my family tree a few generations back there is a woman named Fanny. Imagine traveling to England with that name :X ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/6 "2011-12-14T22:42:23Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I don’t know the answer but I wanted to add to your thread - don’t ever say “fannypack” to an Englishman. Oo boy, he will never stop mocking you. And vice versa for the equivalent British term, ‘bum pack’. _snicker_ ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/7 "2011-12-14T22:48:51Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > In my family tree a few generations back there is a woman named Fanny. Imagine traveling to England with that name :X The third verse of Jingle Bells: > [@](#): > > A day or two ago > I thought I’d take a ride > And soon Miss Fanny Bright > Was seated by my side > The horse was lean and lank > Misfortune seemed his lot > We got into a drifted bank > And then we got upsot ---
**Author:** ![Hokkaido\_Brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d26b3c/32.png) [@Hokkaido\_Brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hokkaido_Brit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/8 "2011-12-14T22:56:49Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > In my family tree a few generations back there is a woman named Fanny. Imagine traveling to England with that name :X Lots and lots of women in Victorian times were called Fanny - a very common name. In British slang there’s a phrase Sweet Fanny Adams, which has come to be a politer version of Sweet FA. But my Dad used to call me Fanny Adams when I misbehaved and even today (he’s in his mid-seventies) he refers to any female that he doesn’t approve of as Fanny Adams. (Like a co-worker he hated - he’d always come home and say “Fanny Adams was up to her tricks again today” etc.) So, thanks to this thread I just looked up [Fanny Adams](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Adams) and was saddened to see that the original was an eight year old girl murdered in the 1800’s, disemboweled and disfigured. Sailors then started referring to their rations as Fanny Adams (her guts were spread over a wide area) and from there on it came to mean “nothing” or “worthless” and then expanded to cover Sweet FA. Poor little girl… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/9 "2011-12-14T23:09:45Z")
It’s hard to believe there’s no connection to John Cleland’s [Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Hill) better known as Fanny Hill. The name is dead giveaway and the British audience, who all learned Latin at school, would absolutely get the pun on [mons veneris](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mons_veneris). The book is from 1748 and famous even when banned so the phrase would be common. ---
**Author:** ![brittekland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@brittekland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brittekland)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/10 "2011-12-14T23:26:44Z")
> [@Hokkaido\_Brit](#): > > [Fanny Adams](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Adams) Very strange story.“Mrs Adams ran to **The Butts field** where her husband, bricklayer[3] George Adams, was playing cricket”… interesting. It’s good to know what fanny can mean and it brings new meaning to Fanny Mae chocolate. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/11 "2011-12-14T23:51:16Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > And vice versa for the equivalent British term, ‘bum pack’. _snicker_ It’s actually ‘bum bag’. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/12 "2011-12-15T00:07:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s hard to believe there’s no connection to John Cleland’s [Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Hill) better known as Fanny Hill. Damn it, you sniped me. I never thought about the pun in Latin, probably because I didn’t know Latin when I read the little book, but I remember lividly the various descriptions of penetration in there. Why don’t “we” call a dick a “stretcher” anymore? And when did such a term begin to be used for a litter whose purpose is the carrying of the impotent? ETA “bum bag.” Hilarious. Also, kind of gross. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/13 "2011-12-15T00:10:44Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > It’s actually ‘bum bag’. I think that might be even funnier! ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/14 "2011-12-15T00:11:52Z")
There’s an 1835-40 cite in British English for _fanny_ which is absolutely the genitalia. > [@](#): > > I’ve got a little Fanny/That with hair is overspread. It was a music hall song. Jon Lighter, who edited and wrote the classic work _Random House Dictionary of Amercan Slang_ also suggests that it could have derived from the _Fanny Hill_ novel as harpo suggested upthread. The US sense is found around WWI. While that suggests to me that they got it from the English during the war, how it came to be the buttocks in US slang isn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/15 "2011-12-15T00:30:16Z")
**Petanque** is a French game, similar to Italian _Bocce_. Regarding fanny: > [@](#): > > To fanny (mettre fanny in French) > To beat one’s opponents 13 to 0. The figure of a bare-bottomed lass named Fanny is ubiquitous in Provence wherever pétanque is played. It is traditional that when a player loses 13 to 0 it is said that “il est fanny” (he’s fanny) or “il a fait fanny” (he made fanny), and that he has to kiss the bottom of a girl called Fanny. Since there is rarely an obliging Fanny’s behind handy, there is usually a substitute picture, woodcarving or pottery so that Fanny’s bottom is available. More often, the team which made “fanny” has to offer a beverage to the winning team (see the French popular expression “Fanny paie à boire !”). > **[Pétanque](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petanque)** > > Pétanque (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}French: \[petɑ̃k\] ⓘ, locally in Provence \[peˈtãᵑkə\]; Occitan: petanca \[peˈtaŋkɔ\] ⓘ; Catalan: petanca \[pəˈtaŋkə, peˈtaŋka\]) is a sport that falls into the category of boules sports (along with raffa, bocce, boule lyonnaise, lawn bowls, and crown green bowling). In these sports, players or te... Pictures of same: [http://www.simplytreasures.com/t-la\_fanny.aspx](http://www.simplytreasures.com/t-la_fanny.aspx) > **[petanque.org - Sports News from All Over the World for Petanque Lovers](https://www.petanque.org)** > > Petanque.org is a blog about the world of petanque, also bringing you the latest from world sports – basketball, soccer live scores, NFL, and the Olympics. > **[Peter Mayle about Fanny](http://petanqueamericaopen.blogspot.com/2006/11/peter-mayle-about-fanny.html)** > > Today, between the bills for our new office, and advertising for carpet cleaning (which will have to wait until the former are paid), arrive... > **[petanque,jeu de boules, sport, frankrijk, spel](https://www.angelfire.com/crazy2/petanque/english.html)** > > kleine uitleg over petanque,jeu de boules,met plaatjes,animated gifs,regels,tactiek,techniek,recreatie,sport [http://users.adam.com.au/beaumont/pholics/files/fannypics.htm](http://users.adam.com.au/beaumont/pholics/files/fannypics.htm) Please note that these are French in origin, as is the game, and clearly owes nothing to American usage of the word. Noel Coward evidently used “fanny” to mean “rear end” in his play _Private Lives_, so the use isn’t alien in the UK. I’d love to see citations for “fanny” for both “rear end” and “genitals”, and see how far back they go. Eric Partridge also suggested Cleland’s book as an origin for the use of the term for the genitals, but is the term of such relatively recent origin? (Yes, I know how old “Fanny Hil” is. I’ve read it.) This is interesting: > [@](#): > > Fanny: > > “buttocks,” 1920, Amer.Eng., from earlier British meaning “vulva” (1879), perhaps from the name of John Cleland’s heroine in the scandalous novel “Fanny Hill or Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure” (1748). The fem. proper name is a dim. of Frances. The genital sense is still the primary one outside U.S., but is not current in Amer.Eng., a difference which can have consequences when U.S. TV programs and movies air in Britain. > **[Search 'buttocks' on etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=buttocks)** > > Search results for 'buttocks' on etymonline But I’d trust the other OED more. I don’t know where the Online Etymology Dictionary gets their references from. And how old the the Petanque use of the term? ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/16 "2011-12-15T00:47:16Z")
Question for UK and such countries: would a child get in trouble for saying “fanny” the way a child in the US would get for saying, say, “cunt” or something? Or is it not that bad? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/17 "2011-12-15T01:01:46Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > But I’d trust the other OED more. I don’t know where the Online Etymology Dictionary gets their references from. [List of print sources for Etymonline.com](http://www.etymonline.com/sources.php). They’re pretty good. If you’re not using the 3rd online edition of the Oxford then they’re definitely better. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/18 "2011-12-15T01:15:09Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’d love to see citations for “fanny” for both “rear end” and “genitals”, and see how far back they go. I’ve done this in my post up thread. the specific earliest US usage is > [@](#): > > They made us all get in a circle and stoop over while a guy ran around hit us on the …never mind where-----with a strap…I believe they call the game “Bat the Fanny” and they sure did bat me. From 1919. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/19 "2011-12-15T01:16:09Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > Question for UK and such countries: would a child get in trouble for saying “fanny” the way a child in the US would get for saying, say, “cunt” or something? Or is it not that bad? It’s not rude per se, just the subject matter that is ‘tittilating’. It’s a juvenile word, the kind that one would _expect_ a child to use, and that parents of a female child might give her to use refer to her genitals. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219/20 "2011-12-15T04:23:18Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > I’ve done this in my post up thread. > > the specific earliest US usage is > From 1919. It wasn’t clear in the post that those were the earliest uses. Where are the cited from? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-evolution-of-fanny/606219.md?page=2)