# The ex-felon vs the two drunk douchebags **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 15, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696 "2011-10-15T00:51:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/281 "2011-10-18T14:07:34Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I think the girls should go to jail and the guy should be made to attend either anger management classes or maybe a self defense class to learn self control. > > I do not think he deserves jail. I’m not certain any of them deserve jail, or at least not a long sentence. If you reckon all he should get for beating them while they were on the floor is anger management classes, then it’s a double standard to send those women to jail just for slapping him once. And they _definitely_ need to learn some self-control. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/282 "2011-10-18T14:14:40Z")
I suppose the simplest solution would be to grind the lot of them up into McBurgers. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/283 "2011-10-18T14:22:41Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’m not certain any of them deserve jail, or at least not a long sentence. If you reckon all he should get for beating them while they were on the floor is anger management classes, then it’s a double standard to send those women to jail just for slapping him once. And they _definitely_ need to learn some self-control. Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I think they deserve jail if the $50.00 was fake for one, but they did more than just slap him. They came after him in his work place. Work has to be safe. That trumps a lot of other considerations for me. ---
**Author:** ![justrob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@justrob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justrob)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/284 "2011-10-18T15:11:12Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > …, and it appears to be more of a thin metal poker or antenna of some kind (maybe a long latch for one of the kitchen machines) than a “pipe” as is being asserted, … From a long time McDonald’s worker back in the day the weapon appears to be the rod used to help clean the fryers. So it would be a 1/4" thick round stainless steel rod about 30" long with a bent portion about 6-8" long on the end he is hitting them with. I think it would hurt a lot to get beat with that but probably less than an actual pipe. The news story in the first link really skews what happened by showing the employee hitting them with the rod first, then going back and glossing over the fact that the two customers attacked him first. Then when they are playing the whole scene they put up a banner across the screen when he goes at them a second time with the rod. In the video from a later link you can see that one of the customers is getting up but in the news cast this is hidden by the banner. The news cast then replays that section once or twice making it seem like he kept beating them. The video from the later link shows this was only on video the one time. If the employee went at them more than that I don’t know because it was not recorded on the video and we don’t have any info from the witnesses. I don’t think his grabbing the rod to defend himself from the attack is excessive since there are two people attcking him. He may have crossed the line to excessive depending on how many times he went after tham again when they were on the ground. I think the customers should definitely be charged with assault. Depending on how many times the employee came back at them and what the customers were doing at that time the employee may need to be charged with assault as well. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/285 "2011-10-18T15:22:24Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I think they deserve jail if the $50.00 was fake for one, but they did more than just slap him. They came after him in his work place. Work has to be safe. That trumps a lot of other considerations for me. That’s why I added ‘trespass.’ TBH though, I think I tend to be more anti-jail time than most people on here - to me it should be a last resort, not for any soft-hearted reason but because it’s not always wise to send someone off to mix with a load of criminals they can learn new tricks from - and spend loads of money to keep them there. If they’re already on parole, or mess up community service and anger management classes, then they should go to jail. Possibly that goes for the staffmember too, depending on what was actually going on in the part we can’t completely see. Jail for passing one fake note would be ridiculous. But if what they did was wrong, and it was, then how can hitting someone when they’re already not a threat be wrong? It’s OK for him to be explosively angry, but not them? It’s weird that, to some (not you), a woman _slapping_ a man is terrible but a man _smashing her head in with a weapon_ is OK. The only reason I used their genders there is because I’m starting to wonder if the women are being judged more harshly because we’re more used to men being violent than women. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/286 "2011-10-18T15:28:51Z")
> [@justrob](#): > > From a long time McDonald’s worker back in the day the weapon appears to be the rod used to help clean the fryers. So it would be a 1/4" thick round stainless steel rod about 30" long with a bent portion about 6-8" long on the end he is hitting them with. I think it would hurt a lot to get beat with that but probably less than an actual pipe. > > The news story in the first link really skews what happened by showing the employee hitting them with the rod first, then going back and glossing over the fact that the two customers attacked him first. Then when they are playing the whole scene they put up a banner across the screen when he goes at them a second time with the rod. In the video from a later link you can see that one of the customers is getting up but in the news cast this is hidden by the banner. The news cast then replays that section once or twice making it seem like he kept beating them. The video from the later link shows this was only on video the one time. If the employee went at them more than that I don’t know because it was not recorded on the video and we don’t have any info from the witnesses. > > I don’t think his grabbing the rod to defend himself from the attack is excessive since there are two people attcking him. He may have crossed the line to excessive depending on how many times he went after tham again when they were on the ground. > > I think the customers should definitely be charged with assault. Depending on how many times the employee came back at them and what the customers were doing at that time the employee may need to be charged with assault as well. The video posted in the MPSIMS thread doesn’t have any edits or banners, but I just went back to link to it and youtube have taken it down. That’s the video my posts were based on anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/287 "2011-10-18T15:30:25Z")
I’m more on your side than theirs, **Sam** , but I’m reasonably sure that the difference is instigation versus retaliation/self-defense, not female versus male. Had it been a guy who attacked a female employee for checking his $50, people would be cheering her on just as much as the guy in the real situation. (Though I have my doubts about **magellan**.) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/288 "2011-10-18T15:44:49Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > I’m more on your side than theirs, **Sam** , but I’m reasonably sure that the difference is instigation versus retaliation/self-defense, not female versus male. Had it been a guy who attacked a female employee for checking his $50, people would be cheering her on just as much as the guy in the real situation. (Though I have my doubts about **magellan**.) I agree that them being the aggressors makes a difference, but there’s also an enormous difference between slapping someone and breaking their head with a weapon. TBH I kinda hope that some unintentional misogyny is the cause for some people’s opinions, because otherwise I’m posting on here with a bunch of psychopaths. ---
**Author:** ![justrob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@justrob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justrob)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/289 "2011-10-18T15:57:40Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The video posted in the MPSIMS thread doesn’t have any edits or banners, but I just went back to link to it and youtube have taken it down. That’s the video my posts were based on anyway. Possibly but I haven’t read that thread. The links I’m talking about are from the news cast in the OP… > [@magellan01](#): > > [Oops. Here’s the link.](http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/10/14/shock-video-savage-attack-at-manhattan-mcdonalds/) The second one looks like it was pulled from Youtube but [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF5UoKqwNQ4&feature=related) is another version. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/290 "2011-10-18T16:07:35Z")
I think it’s disingenuous to say all they did was “slap” him. They pursued him behind the counter (after he had already tried to simply leave the situation one time, which is going to be the lynchpin of any defense against ‘why didn’t you just run away’) where there’s all manner of danger and potential weapons (hot equipment &c) after already demonstrating their intent to get away with a felony (passing a counterfeit bill) and repeatedly trying to instigate a fight (yelling ‘what you gonna do about it, pussy’ and slapping him). Outside of relying on wink-wink “this person who had been in jail before and is a man did something to a woman and made our city look bad on Youtube” stuff, which they aren’t really allowed to bring up directly, the prosecution really has to prove that the threat was entirely neutralized and then he hit them one or more times afterwards. All the other stuff doesn’t matter, and proving that is going to require additional testimony or internal security footage, since we can’t see in the posted video what was going on under the counter. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/291 "2011-10-18T16:11:56Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I think it’s disingenuous to say all they did was “slap” him. They pursued him behind the counter (after he had already tried to simply leave the situation one time, which is going to be the lynchpin of any defense against ‘why didn’t you just run away’) where there’s all manner of danger and potential weapons (hot equipment &c) after already demonstrating their intent to get away with a felony (passing a counterfeit bill) and repeatedly trying to instigate a fight (yelling ‘what you gonna do about it, pussy’ and slapping him). Outside of relying on wink-wink “this person who had been in jail before and is a man did something to a woman and made our city look bad on Youtube” stuff, which they aren’t really allowed to bring up directly, the prosecution really has to prove that the threat was entirely neutralized and then he hit them one or more times afterwards. All the other stuff doesn’t matter, and proving that is going to require additional testimony or internal security footage, since we can’t see in the posted video what was going on under the counter. I think it’s disingenous to say he “tried to leave the situation”, when he was really, in fact, going to retrieve his weapon. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/292 "2011-10-18T16:28:33Z")
So you are pretty confident that once he “retrieved his weapon” that he would have chased around the counter himself to start beating on them? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/293 "2011-10-18T16:39:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So you are pretty confident that once he “retrieved his weapon” that he would have chased around the counter himself to start beating on them? I’m not saying that nor implying it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/294 "2011-10-18T17:24:15Z")
You kind of are. He moved away from them, and yes grabbed a rod. Unless your implying he was coming back to hit them he did indeed remove himself thus it’s not “disingenuous” to say so. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/295 "2011-10-18T17:26:01Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I think it’s disingenuous to say all they did was “slap” him. They pursued him behind the counter (after he had already tried to simply leave the situation one time, which is going to be the lynchpin of any defense against ‘why didn’t you just run away’) where there’s all manner of danger and potential weapons (hot equipment &c) after already demonstrating their intent to get away with a felony (passing a counterfeit bill) and repeatedly trying to instigate a fight (yelling ‘what you gonna do about it, pussy’ and slapping him). Outside of relying on wink-wink “this person who had been in jail before and is a man did something to a woman and made our city look bad on Youtube” stuff, which they aren’t really allowed to bring up directly, the prosecution really has to prove that the threat was entirely neutralized and then he hit them one or more times afterwards. All the other stuff doesn’t matter, and proving that is going to require additional testimony or internal security footage, since we can’t see in the posted video what was going on under the counter. Yes, it would be disingenuous to say that was all they did - but I didn’t. They did trespass and were the aggressors. But the entirety of the actual assault was two slaps, one from each woman. They might well have done more if he hadn’t hit them away - which is why nobody’s saying he shouldn’t have defended himself - but that is all they actually did in the assault itself. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/296 "2011-10-18T19:30:50Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I agree that them being the aggressors makes a difference, but there’s also an enormous difference between slapping someone and breaking their head with a weapon. TBH I kinda hope that some unintentional misogyny is the cause for some people’s opinions, because otherwise I’m posting on here with a bunch of psychopaths. I guess you are, then. Because if I slapped a cashier and then jumped the counter to attack him and got wailed on and my skull broken, I would say I totally deserved it. But that’s a minority view, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/297 "2011-10-18T19:38:28Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > That’s why I added ‘trespass.’ TBH though, I think I tend to be more anti-jail time than most people on here - to me it should be a last resort, not for any soft-hearted reason but because it’s not always wise to send someone off to mix with a load of criminals they can learn new tricks from - and spend loads of money to keep them there. > > If they’re already on parole, or mess up community service and anger management classes, then they should go to jail. Possibly that goes for the staffmember too, depending on what was actually going on in the part we can’t completely see. > > Jail for passing one fake note would be ridiculous. > > But if what they did was wrong, and it was, then how can hitting someone when they’re already not a threat be wrong? It’s OK for him to be explosively angry, but not them? > > It’s weird that, to some (not you), a woman _slapping_ a man is terrible but a man _smashing her head in with a weapon_ is OK. > > The only reason I used their genders there is because I’m starting to wonder if the women are being judged more harshly because we’re more used to men being violent than women. I don’t want them to go to jail for life. Maybe a short stint though will keep them from trying it again. And he didn’t know how far they were willing to take it. Plus, I’m willing to consider that the time he has already spent in prison has no doubt played a part in his survival skills or whatever. I would not give him jail time. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/298 "2011-10-18T21:24:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I guess you are, then. Because if I slapped a cashier and then jumped the counter to attack him and got wailed on and my skull broken, I would say I totally deserved it. But that’s a minority view, it seems. Look around the thread. This opinion is not a minority. This opinion is the Bill O’Reilly of opinions. You also won’t find any claims that the guy overreacted from the perspective of what the attackers _deserved_. People earn all kinds of terrible treatment. That doesn’t license everybody to go out dispensing it, because we have a whole official system set up where a guy with a wooden hammer sits there and presides over a special personal trial to determine what you deserve. Which we generally have agreed is a better system than letting a felon with a shillelagh decide. **magellan** (who incidentally would _deserve_ at least a slap for most of his posts to this board, but who obviously shouldn’t be subjected to such treatment by another person, because that would be fucked up) has even specifically denied that this was about punishment. What he and other people are arguing here is that this was self defense, which a few of us have been suggesting doesn’t really fit. You don’t seem to think it was self defense either; you think they just deserved it. Nobody has even disagreed with you about what they deserved. When you slap a guy in the face and there’s two of you and you follow him back into a private area of his workplace, if you get your ass kicked you had it coming. That doesn’t mean there’s nothing wrong with the guy hammering your skull into a new shape. He isn’t the guy who decides. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/299 "2011-10-18T22:29:31Z")
Are folks saying he is justified because they deserved it or because he was defending himself? I find it hard to believe he was defending himself when he went back for seconds, those were clearly some sort of retribution, but the initial blows, I can see an argument for self defense (kind of). So in my mind self defense is ok, but retribution? That is for the courts and should not be tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696/300 "2011-10-18T22:54:52Z")
You know, I don’t think I argue or debate well and I can almost always see both sides to almost any argument anyway. I consider myself too wishy washy because of this. But the more I think about this situation, the more right I feel that the cashier should not just not go to jail, but he should also get his damn job back. I mean really, this poor guy shows up to work his minimum wage job. He obviously works in an area that is sketchy. He has a past that probably adds to how nerve wracking it is to do this shitty ass job in the first place. But he’s paid his fucking debt to society and he’s trying to do the right thing. Part of his job description is to check for fake money. So for showing up at a shitty job for shitty money and probably no benefits, he gets slapped and then chased just for doing his fucking job that he would probably would have lost anyway if he’d failed to check the fucking bill. No, no jail time for him. And give him his fucking job back if he even wants it. so there thpppt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ex-felon-vs-the-two-drunk-douchebags/599696.md?page=16)