# The exact nature ofthe American Merchant Marine / the British Merchant Navy **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 23, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326 "2021-01-23T23:50:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/1 "2021-01-23T23:50:06Z")
Since childhood, I have been confused by the term “Merchant Marine”. I used to think it was some kind of distinct paramilitary organization that did merchant shipping in peacetime and became a navy in wartime. Further research showed that it was not technically a military outfit, but that in times of war the merchant marine served as an auxiliary to the military, transporting materiel and men to theaters of war…or something like that. What I still wasn’t clear about was, which ships were in the Merchant Marine and which weren’t. Finally, I managed to discover that in the USA, the Merchant Marine and in the United Kingdom the Merchant Navy, are actually ALL the civilian shipping vessels registered in those countries. What I’m still not clear about, is: 1. Is the “Merchant Marine/Navy” an actual _organization_, or just an umbrella term for all the ships and their crews in those countires? 2. Is membership automatic for all ships/mariners? I.E., Is there some law that mandates that any ship or shipping company operating on the American / British register adhere to this Merchant Marine / Navy and particiate in its duties and activities (foremost the logistical role in times of war mentioned above), with no right to opt out? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/2 "2021-01-24T15:46:39Z")
The significance of the term is primarily legal. In international law, the country that a civilian ship is registered in, and whose flag it flies in consequence, determines the nationality of that ship analogous to the nationality of an individual that comes from citizenship. Many rules in the law of the sea - the body of international law that governs navigation - attach importance to that nationality. Effectively, when a ship is on the high seas, it is subject (only) to the jurisdiction of its flag state, and the laws of that state apply there; and even in the territorial waters of another state, there are limits as to how far the coastal state can restrict passage of foreign ships. So the idea of summarising all civilian vessels of a country as that countrys merchant navy emphasises this link between the ships and their home state under international law. In times of war this can be of particular relevance since countries can confiscate civilian ships for use in the war effort, a process called requisition. This happened, for instance, during the World Wars but isn’t done anymore, though the possibility still exists. The concept of a merchant marine also expresses this idea of being a kind of reserve for military purposes if needed. To my knowledge, though, there are no regular drills or training of the merchant marine to keep it prepared for active service in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/3 "2021-01-24T18:23:30Z")
Ships Taken Up From Trade [STUFT] have been a feature of British naval practice since at least the 16th c. and was done at least as late as the Falklands War in the 1980s. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/4 "2021-01-24T18:26:01Z")
Wiki has some good articles on this: > **[Merchant navy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_navy)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > A merchant navy or merchant marine is the fleet of merchant vessels that are registered in a specific country. On merchant vessels, seafarers of various ranks and sometimes members of maritime trade unions are required by the International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers (STCW) to carry Merchant Mariner's Documents. > King George V bestowed the title of the "Merchant Navy" on the British merchant sh... > **[United States Merchant Marine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Merchant_Marine)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > > The United States Merchant Marine are United States civilian mariners and U.S. civilian and federally owned merchant vessels. Both the civilian mariners and the merchant vessels are managed by a combination of the government and private sectors, and engage in commerce or transportation of goods and services in and out of the navigable waters of the United States. The Merchant Marine primarily transports domestic and international cargo and pass... > **[United States Merchant Marine Academy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Merchant_Marine_Academy)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > > The United States Merchant Marine Academy (USMMA or Kings Point) is a United States service academy in Kings Point, New York. It trains its midshipmen (as students at the academy are called) to serve as officers in the United States Merchant Marine, branches of the United States Armed Forces and the transportation industry. Midshipmen are trained in different fields such as marine engineering, navigation, ship's administration, maritime law, ... ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/5 "2021-01-24T18:57:05Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Wiki has some good articles on this: > [Merchant navy - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_navy) > [United States Merchant Marine - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Merchant_Marine) > [United States Merchant Marine Academy - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Merchant_Marine_Academy) I never quite got the relationship between the US Merchant Marine Academy and the US military. I had a high school friends who graduated Kings Point and then joined the Marines as an officer. I get that the USMMA is potentially a path to become an officer, but is it considered equivalent to the other service academies? Is it sort of like a “safety school” compared to Annapolis? Isn’t pretty much any college with ROTC a path to becoming an officer? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/6 "2021-01-24T21:07:41Z")
My father joined the Merchant Marine early in WWII to avoid being drafted back into the army (in which he had served one year pre-war). He was a civilian. He had an NCO rating that he earned by studying and passing exams. He worked in the Pacific, and would sign on (or be assigned, that part I’m not sure about) for specific trips of specific duration on a particular ship. When he reached the end of that trip, he might spend some time in port (his home base was apparently San Francisco) before going on another trip. He worked exclusively, I think, on Liberty ships. One time he had a relatively minor injury that sidelined him in SF for a while, so he found a job at Playland By The Sea, an amusement park, where he could work sitting down. Although he was always a civilian during his tenure in the Merchant Marine, he did wear a non-military uniform on duty. There were probably regulations about how long he could stay idle in a port between trips to retain his standing, although he never talked about that. I forgot to mention that the ships were exclusively used to carry cargo, and did not engage in military operations, in case that wasn’t obvious. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/7 "2021-01-24T22:07:24Z")
As I understand it, the Merchant Marine is basically the body of licensed seafarers who are licensed by the US Government and who sail US flagged ships. They are NOT military, and they’re not necessarily public employees either. They work for civilian shipping companies as captains, first mates, etc… In time of war, the ships can be effectively pressed into service to haul cargo for the government, but they’re still not military. The USMMA at Kings Point is a Federal service academy that produces Merchant Marine officers. There are other programs around the country (e.g. Texas Maritime Academy, etc…) who have ROTC programs which act very similar. Upon graduation, midshipmen/cadets can choose to be licensed in the Merchant Marine and work in a civilian capacity, go for a NROTC commission in the Navy, or they can do a sort of hybrid where they work primarily as civilian Merchant Marine officers, but are in the Naval Reserve, and can be called up in time of war into active duty and man one of the USNS transports or other non-combat ships. (I work with a woman who went to USMMA, and she explained all this) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/8 "2021-01-24T23:02:10Z")
There is a very loosely similar concept in aviation. The > **[Civil Reserve Air Fleet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Reserve_Air_Fleet)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > The Civil Reserve Air Fleet is part of the United States's mobility resources. Selected aircraft from U.S. airlines, contractually committed to Civil Reserve Air Fleet, support United States Department of Defense airlift requirements in emergencies when the need for airlift exceeds the capability of available military aircraft. > In 1952, after aircraft were commandeered for the Berlin Airlift, the Civil Reserve Air Fleet (CRAF) was created as a mo... DoD essentially pre-contracts for the right to “requisition” a hefty chunk of the long haul airline industry of the USA. And a smaller chunk of the short(er) haul industry. When activated, we keep working for our employer, but DoD sets the schedule of when and where from and to. And provides the payloads, be that cargo or people. Our job is just to get it moved right away. We’d obviously have a hard time getting airliners into and out of dirt strips near the fighting front, but for bringing stuff into the theater, or hauling troops around the US the industry is collectively 30x the size of DOD’s own air transport services. The whole industry isn’t committed to CRAF, but we’d still be the lion’s share of DoD air transport if CRAF ever went to a maximum effort. There is no aviation equivalent of the Merchant Marine Academy. Though there are some colleges that are dedicated to aviation akin to the Texas Maritime Academy @bump mentioned. With appropriate ROTC on-site. Like with the merchant mariners, a significant fraction of airline pilots, mechanics and such are also individually affiliated with the Air Force Reserve, aviation parts of the Army & Navy reserves, and the Army and Air National Guards. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/9 "2021-01-24T23:10:57Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I forgot to mention that the ships were exclusively used to carry cargo, and did not engage in military operations, in case that wasn’t obvious. But they were armed with a 4" cannon and several AA guns. The Victory Ship had 1 × 5 inch (127 mm)/38 caliber gun 1 × 3 inch (76 mm)/50 caliber gun; 8 × 20 mm Oerlikon. In fact the USS _Stephen Hopkins_ sank the german Auxiliary cruiser _Stier_ On 27 September 1942. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/10 "2021-01-24T23:29:42Z")
I did not know that. I presume the armament was for self-defense. My father never mentioned coming under fire, but he might not have mentioned it if it was unpleasant or traumatic. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/11 "2021-01-24T23:33:33Z")
That’s the SS Stephen Hopkins. USS is for commissioned military ships, no? > **[SS Stephen Hopkins](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Stephen_Hopkins)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > SS Stephen Hopkins was a United States Merchant Marine Liberty ship that served in World War II. She was the only US merchant vessel to sink a German surface combatant during the war. > She was built at the Permanente Metals Corporation (Kaiser) shipyards in Richmond, California. Her namesake was Stephen Hopkins, a Founding Father and signer of the Declaration of Independence from Rhode Island. She was operated by Luckenbach Steamship Company und... ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/12 "2021-01-24T23:50:47Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > but is it considered equivalent to the other service academies? Midshipmen are paid to attend Annapolis. Not very much (pocket money and expenses). But as I understand it, if you are at Annapolis, you are _already_ in the Navy. If you flunk out, you’re _still_ in the navy, and have a service obligation (instead of a student debt). If you pass through, you’re still a navy officer, and have a service obligation as a navy officer. As I understand it, if you are at USMMA, you are already in the Navy Reserve. If you flunk out, you’re _still_ in the navy reserve, and have a service obligation in the reserve. If you pass through, you may be offered a commission as an active duty navy officer, or you may just stay in reserve. So not exactly the same. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/13 "2021-01-24T23:57:07Z")
Yes, right. SS Stephen Hopkins. Still quite a achievement. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/14 "2021-01-25T00:14:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But they were armed with a 4" cannon and several AA guns. The Victory Ship had 1 × 5 inch (127 mm)/38 caliber gun 1 × 3 inch (76 mm)/50 caliber gun; 8 × 20 mm Oerlikon. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I presume the armament was for self-defense. Yes. The Brits had the Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships (DEMS) – merchant ships were fittted with weapons, and gun crews were provided by the Royal Navy and the Royal Artillery. > **[Defensively equipped merchant ship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensively_equipped_merchant_ship)** > > Defensively equipped merchant ship (DEMS) was an Admiralty Trade Division programme established in June 1939, to arm 5,500 British merchant ships with an adequate defence against enemy submarines and aircraft. The acronym DEMS was used to describe the ships carrying the guns, the guns aboard the ships, the military personnel manning the guns, and the shore establishment supporting the system. > In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, European countries such as Spain, France, the Netherlands an... One of my favourite novels, _A Flock of Ships_ (Brian Callison), is about one of these ships in WW II. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/15 "2021-01-25T01:07:43Z")
We have, or had, a graduate of King’s Point here on the 'Dope. And a couple of people with MM experience as a non-officer. Of whom @Snnipe_70E is one whose name I recall. Perhaps he’ll see this reference and join us here. His experience was quite awhile ago, but is always interesting. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/16 "2021-01-25T02:57:51Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > @Snnipe_70E Or do you mean @Snipe70e? ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/17 "2021-01-25T03:05:26Z")
Midshipmen (both Academy and ROTC) do summer cruises after I think their first and third years. We had a handful every year on the boats I served on. One year we had a King’s Point middie. (Another time we had a middie who would have been a great submariner – fit in with the crew very well – but he was going to be commissioned as a jarhead officer.) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/18 "2021-01-25T12:05:15Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > @Snnipe_70E > > Or do you mean @Snipe70e? Good catch. I paged his dead vBulletin ID, not the one he’s using now. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/19 "2021-01-25T14:20:14Z")
Interestingly enough, US armed cargo ships had civilian crews and honest-to-God Navy gun crews, not Merchant Marine sailors manning the guns. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326/20 "2021-01-25T15:43:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In fact the USS _Stephen Hopkins_ sank the german Auxiliary cruiser _Stier_ On 27 September 1942. A Pyrrhic victory, since the _SS Stephen Hopkins_ sank first. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-exact-nature-ofthe-american-merchant-marine-the-british-merchant-navy/931326.md?page=2)