# The execution of Humberto Leal Garcia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676 "2011-07-11T22:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/21 "2011-07-12T01:02:53Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > The US failed to inform Leal of his Vienna Convention (on Consular Relations) rights to consular access, which apparently the convention requires under Article 36 (i.e., Foreign nationals who are arrested or detained be given notice “without delay” of their right to have their embassy or consulate notified of that arrest). Unless the US did that or the Convention has changed, that’s a violation/breach because Leal was never informed of that right. > > However, I don’t think the US violated any domestic laws (only international) in their failure to inform and Leal was lawfully executed under US and Texas law. I’m wondering…did we ratify the Vienna Convention? I thought I read that while the US is a signatory, the law was never ratified by the Senate. If that’s the case, then we’re not a party to the treaty. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/22 "2011-07-12T01:08:49Z")
This is totally incidental and apropros of nothing debate related, but I guess I’ll throw it out there as long as we’re on the topic. I recently learned that the railroad trestle and bayou where Jose Medellin and his gang committed the rapes and murders, as well as the small memorial to their two young victims, happened to be in a public park that I go run in all the time. After I found out I looked up the facts of the offenses, and seriously wished I hadn’t. Their crimes were _unbelievably_ awful, even by death penalty rape/murder case standards. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/23 "2011-07-12T01:11:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Do you realize that you are basically arguing for the state to be as unprincipled as a criminal? The government is supposed to show more consideration than a criminal. It did act better. It gave him a fair trial. It gave him oppurtunities to appeal. And they even used a method of death that is relatively painless. (Oh, please bring back old Sparky!) Much more concern that he ever had for his victim. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/24 "2011-07-12T01:12:27Z")
Incidently, I think the OP had the legal issues covered rather nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/25 "2011-07-12T01:31:06Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I’m not a legal scholar. However, is it my understanding that the Supreme Court rules on matters of the law as they currently exist and not as they might exist at some point in the future. Problems similar to the Garcia case have cropped up numerous times in the last few decades. If Congress has failed to legislate for so many years why would the court expect them to legislate now? As I have pointed out - twice - I see a clear distinction between situation where a law that doesn’t exist and a situation, like this one, where a bill is currently before Congress. When the court acknowledges that a legal process is a key factor in its decision and the legal process is currently ongoing, the court should await the completion of the process and then base its decision on the outcome. As for timeliness, Texas has had Garcia for seventeen years. Was there some compelling reason they had to execute him this week? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/26 "2011-07-12T01:33:41Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > It did act better. It gave him a fair trial. It gave him oppurtunities to appeal. And they even used a method of death that is relatively painless. (Oh, please bring back old Sparky!) Much more concern that he ever had for his victim. And we should be trying to see how far we can separate ourselves from people like Garcia. Not seeing how close we can get without becoming them. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/27 "2011-07-12T01:35:16Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’m wondering…did we ratify the Vienna Convention? I thought I read that while the US is a signatory, the law was never ratified by the Senate. If that’s the case, then we’re not a party to the treaty. We did ratify it and still are still a party to it. There’s an optional protocol to the treaty that we also ratified (re: ICJ Jurisdiction to settle the Vienna Convention disputes), but believe we recently dropped out of the optional protocol in 2005ish; this was right after an ICJ decision holding the proper procedures the US had to take in regards to Art 36 violations it committed. To be clear, there are multiple “Vienna Conventions.” The one the OP is referring to is the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. > [@pravnik](#): > > This is totally incidental and apropros of nothing debate related, but I guess I’ll throw it out there as long as we’re on the topic. I recently learned that the railroad trestle and bayou where Jose Medellin and his gang committed the rapes and murders, as well as the small memorial to their two young victims, happened to be in a public park that I go run in all the time. After I found out I looked up the facts of the offenses, and seriously wished I hadn’t. Their crimes were _unbelievably_ awful, even by death penalty rape/murder case standards. Weird. I used to live right near there. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/28 "2011-07-12T01:40:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As I have pointed out - twice - I see a clear distinction between situation where a law that doesn’t exist and a situation, like this one, where a bill is currently before Congress. When the court acknowledges that a legal process is a key factor in its decision and the legal process is currently ongoing, the court should await the completion of the process and then base its decision on the outcome. I think you make a valid point and if this was a recent problem I would be inclined to agree with you. However, since incidents similar to the Garcia incident have been occurring for many years without Congress acting, I can see why the court went ahead and rendered a decision. And I do not think it was wrong of them to do so. So we’ll just have to amicably disagree. > [@](#): > > As for timeliness, Texas has had Garcia for seventeen years. Was there some compelling reason they had to execute him this week? There was no compelling reason to issue a stay of execution according to the state of Texas. Seventeen years is long enough, I think. Though, admittedly, my support of the death penalty is more theoretical and I would like to see it abolished. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/29 "2011-07-12T02:23:42Z")
Ok…I’m looking at the provision of the treaty: > [@](#): > > (a) consular officers shall be free to communicate with nationals of the sending State and to have access to them. Nationals of the sending State shall have the same freedom with respect to communication with and access to consular officers of the sending State; > > (b) if he so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State shall, without delay, inform the consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner. Any communication addressed to the consular post by the person arrested, in prison, custody or detention shall be forwarded by the said authorities without delay. The said authorities shall inform the person concerned without delay of his rights under this subparagraph; > > (c) consular officers shall have the right to visit a national of the sending State who is in prison, custody or detention, to converse and correspond with him and to arrange for his legal representation. > > They shall also have the right to visit any national of the sending State who is in prison, custody or detention in their district in pursuance of a judgement. Nevertheless, consular officers shall refrain from taking action on behalf of a national who is in prison, custody or detention if he expressly opposes such action. > > 2.The rights referred to in paragraph 1 of this article shall be exercised in conformity with the > laws and regulations of the receiving State, subject to the proviso, however, that the said laws and regulations must enable full effect to be given to the purposes for which the rights accorded under this article are intended. So, it seems like it was Leal’s responsibility to request that Mexican consular officials be notified, but that it was Texas’s responsibility to notify him that he could request that Mexican consular officials be notified. So, if they didn’t do that, there’s a treaty violation there. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/30 "2011-07-12T02:39:19Z")
I find it difficult to believe that the treaty requires suspects to be given consular access _before_ a non-custodial interview. Presumably it would be fairly difficult to establish the suspect’s citizenship without the interview. ETA: > [@](#): > > if he so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State shall, without delay, inform the consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner That suggests I’m right; a non-custodial interview does not involve detention. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/31 "2011-07-12T02:43:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Ok…I’m looking at the provision of the treaty: > > So, it seems like it was Leal’s responsibility to request that Mexican consular officials be notified, but that it was Texas’s responsibility to notify him that he could request that Mexican consular officials be notified. So, if they didn’t do that, there’s a treaty violation there. I don’t think that there’s any doubt that the Texas authorities acted in violation of the treaty. Their argument, and the SC agreed, was that they were not bound by it because Congress had never passed a bill making them so and that the treaty itself was not self-executing. Also, as has been pointed out, who do you notify of their right to consular access? Should it be added to the standard Miranda warnings? Since Leal Garcia wasn’t in custody at the time of the interview, should he have been warned? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/32 "2011-07-12T02:46:00Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > The US failed to inform Leal of his Vienna Convention (on Consular Relations) rights to consular access, which apparently the convention requires under Article 36 (i.e., Foreign nationals who are arrested or detained be given notice “without delay” of their right to have their embassy or consulate notified of that arrest). Unless the US did that or the Convention has changed, that’s a violation/breach because Leal was never informed of that right. How were the arresting officials supposed to be aware that the arrestee is a foreign national? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/33 "2011-07-12T02:53:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > ~ > As for timeliness, Texas has had Garcia for seventeen years. Was there some compelling reason they had to execute him this week? Should have benn carried out years ago instead of continuing to pay to keep this slug on death row. Too bad he didn’t go by being beaten with a chunck of concrete and left with a pipe sticking out of his privates like his victim. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/34 "2011-07-12T02:57:11Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Too bad he didn’t go by being beaten with a chunck of concrete and left with a pipe sticking out of his privates like his victim. Thanks for your insightful contribution. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/35 "2011-07-12T03:03:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Thanks for your insightful contribution. Lethal injection was far too kind for this inhumane animal ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/36 "2011-07-12T03:11:55Z")
That one, too. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/37 "2011-07-12T03:14:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How were the arresting officials supposed to be aware that the arrestee is a foreign national? One, this is a separate issue than whether the US was in violation of the treaty. Two, technically arresting officials don’t have to be aware and I would phrase the question differently. The US only has to inform foreign nationals of their right to consular access - How can they do that? Some States could inform _everyone_ (which includes foreign nationals) booked by having them sign something informing them of their rights. Other States could incorporate informing foreign nationals into their Miranda warning; and they give it to everyone. Either way, you don’t get into the sticky situation of having to know someone’s nationality while still informing them of their rights. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/38 "2011-07-12T03:19:15Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > One, this is a separate issue than whether the US was in violation of the treaty. > > Two, technically arresting officials don’t have to be aware and I would phrase the question differently. The US only has to inform foreign nationals of their right to consular access - How can they do that? The Feds tried to get States to do this. Some States inform (or did at least) _everyone_ (which includes foreign nationals) booked by having them sign something informing them of their rights. Other States incorporate informing foreign nationals into their Miranda warning; and they give it to everyone. Either way, you don’t get into the sticky situation of having to know someone’s nationality while still informing them of their rights. But Garcia confessed _before_ he was booked. During noncustodial questioning, the state has no obligation to inform you of your rights because you can leave whenever you like. Miranda and its progeny only apply to custodial interrogation. I guess the Supes could have ruled that individuals must be informed of their potential rights under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations every time a law enforcement official speaks to them, but that’s patently ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/39 "2011-07-12T03:30:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > But Garcia confessed _before_ he was booked. During noncustodial questioning, the state has no obligation to inform you of your rights because you can leave whenever you like. Miranda and its progeny only apply to custodial interrogation. > > … But the US would still be in compliance with the treaty. The treaty states you have to notify him “without delay” after arrest or detention. He was booked at some point. He was mirandized at some point. Informing him then would be enough to not be in breach. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/40 "2011-07-12T03:33:42Z")
Sure, but informing him after his confession wouldn’t do him much good. The confession would still be admissible. If you’re speaking solely in the abstract sense of keeping the US within its treaty obligations, that’s different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676.md?page=3)