# The execution of Humberto Leal Garcia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676 "2011-07-11T22:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/41 "2011-07-12T03:34:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As for timeliness, Texas has had Garcia for seventeen years. Was there some compelling reason they had to execute him this week? In the US system it is not unfamiliar for someone to spend a decade plus on Death Row, but at some point the execution is scheduled, once every reasonable avenue of appeal or challenge is exhausted. Like someone else said, was there any compelling reason to keep waiting longer, either? > [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I don’t think that there’s any doubt that the Texas authorities acted in violation of the treaty. Their argument, and the SC agreed, was that they were not bound by it because Congress had never passed a bill making them so and that the treaty itself was not self-executing. Which is one of those tricky things about the legal system in the USA – one does wonder why is it that in all these years Congress has not seen fit to pass an Act saying, _“by the way, States? If this here is a treaty of the whole US of A, then it applies to y’all’s police, DA’s and courts, too, y’know.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/42 "2011-07-12T03:49:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How were the arresting officials supposed to be aware that the arrestee is a foreign national? Ask? Don’t police departments routinely check the nationality of people who are arrested anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/43 "2011-07-12T04:06:01Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > In the US system it is not unfamiliar for someone to spend a decade plus on Death Row, but at some point the execution is scheduled, once every reasonable avenue of appeal or challenge is exhausted. Like someone else said, was there any compelling reason to keep waiting longer, either? Because next month a law might be passed which the Supreme Court has said would make Garcia’s execution illegal. I think that’s a pretty compelling reason to wait a month. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/44 "2011-07-12T06:39:27Z")
So if Arizona assumes a person with brown skin is a Mexican national or asks if they are, they’re racist but Texas is supposed to assume someone with brown skin is a Mexican national or at least ask if they are. That makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/45 "2011-07-12T07:01:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Ask? Don’t police departments routinely check the nationality of people who are arrested anyway? Nope, they don’t usually check unless they’ve got some reason to. This is problematic because you get people like Garcia who have spent the majority of their lives in the United States but are not citizens. Culturally speaking, a lot of them are thoroughly Americanized to the point where most people would not think of them as “foreigners.” The LaGrand brothers were German nationals executed in Arizona in 1999. Similar to the Garcia case, the brothers were made aware that they could have access to the German consul. I am not clear when state authorities were aware that the brothers were not American. I am curious. If someone is arrested in France, Germany or Spain are they asked as a matter of course what they’re nationality is? Here in the United States, how many illegal aliens would ask for a consul since it would be an admission of their illegal status? If I was aware that I moved to the United States at the age of two and had spent the last 16 years of my life here, I sure as hell wouldn’t admit my status for fear of being deported to a place that isn’t my home. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/46 "2011-07-12T07:09:28Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Should consular access always be granted before an arrest is made? s. AFAIK, consular access is granted _after_ an arrest, not before. Apart from that, the USA not abiding by this treaty is certainly an issue, since mostly every other country does, so protecting American citizens while the reverse isn’t apparently necessarily true. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/47 "2011-07-12T07:12:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Ask? Don’t police departments routinely check the nationality of people who are arrested anyway? No, why would they. Moreover, why would we want them to. Do we really want all of our police departments to operate on the assumption that anyone who has a Spanish surname and darkish skin is actually not an American citizen. Moreover, countless people are foreign nationals, in many cases without even realizing it. For example according to Filipino law, any child or Filipino citizens is automatically a Filipino citizen, even people born in the US who can’t speak Tagalog to save their lives. I suspect the same is true regarding Mexico in which case there are vast numbers of people who’ve been born in America and never left the country who theoretically should be informed they could request to see consular personnel. Nor for that matter are we the only country with such an issue. Do the British police ask every person they take in if their parents were Irish, Canadian, or American citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/48 "2011-07-12T07:48:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Thanks for your insightful contribution. Well, sanctimony aside, Garcia did indeed get better representation and more rights than he would in perhaps 60% of the world (a low estimate, I figure), and indeed more than he’d have gotten in just about any part of the world of 40 years ago. Although “the state should behave better than the criminals” is a worthy goal, it’s a tad open-ended. Simple time constraints guarantee that it’s not possible to minutely and exactingly explore every possible avenue in a police investigation and criminal prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/49 "2011-07-12T08:43:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, sanctimony aside, Garcia did indeed get better representation and more rights than he would in perhaps 60% of the world (a low estimate, I figure), and indeed more than he’d have gotten in just about any part of the world of 40 years ago. Although “the state should behave better than the criminals” is a worthy goal, it’s a tad open-ended. Simple time constraints guarantee that it’s not possible to minutely and exactingly explore every possible avenue in a police investigation and criminal prosecution. No, but this was a serious crime and involved a capital charge, not just any old traffic violation. If there’s a class of case in which it’s particularly important to get things right, this case is in that class. In many countries the populations is registered, and if you’re arrested they’ll discover fairly quickly that you are, or are not, a citizen (or that you are not registered, in which case they can ask you about citizenship). In the US, of course, this is not the case. Given that the US has accepted a treaty obligation to advise non-citizens of their right to consular access, it’s up to the US to work out how to give effect to that. Any practical system has to take account of the fact that the population is not registered, so the police are unlikely already to know your citizenship status. Fortunately, there’s a precedent for doing this with minimum cost and trouble. Currently, the police don’t know if a person arrested is too poor to afford legal representation, so they tell _everyone_ they arrest that, if they are too poor to afford legal representation, it can be provided for them at public expense. Given that there is a signficant number of non-citizens in the US (by no means all of them illegally) it seems fairly straightforward to include information about the right of foreign citizens to consular access in the standard arresting language. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/50 "2011-07-12T09:01:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How were the arresting officials supposed to be aware that the arrestee is a foreign national? In this case, and probably in the vast majority, it wouldn’t be rocket science. “Where were you born? Mexico? OK, have you ever applied for U.S. citizenship?” That would pretty much do the trick, or at least gather enough information to allow law enforcement to contact relevant authorities to figure it out. They manage it all the time when figuring out whether someone who has been convicted should have an immigration hold put on him/her after finishing a criminal sentence. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/51 "2011-07-12T10:52:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Because next month a law might be passed which the Supreme Court has said would make Garcia’s execution illegal. I think that’s a pretty compelling reason to wait a month. I think it’s a pretty compelling reason to execute him first. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/52 "2011-07-12T12:01:28Z")
I found this “citation needed” nugget in wiki under Miranda warning: In states bordering Mexico, including Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California, suspects who are not United States citizens are given an additional warning:[citation needed] If you are not a United States citizen, you may contact your country’s consulate prior to any questioning. I dont know if this was in effect when Leal Garcia was arrested. I’d guess not. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/53 "2011-07-12T12:58:25Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think it’s a pretty compelling reason to execute him first. Funny… Not. But it does provide a parallel: if an anti-death-penalty governor, who has hinted he may commute most death warrants before him, were elected, would it require lawfully scheduled executions pending during the lame-duck period be stopped, or conversely that there be a rush to execute as many as you can before he is inaugurated? I would consider the latter to be a more morally deficient response, IMO of course, but neither course of action would be legally compelled. My point was that “because by next month the law may change” does not seem that compelling _ **one way or the other** _, because they have had _years_ to pass that law, what’s taking the legislative branch so long, and how do we know they’ll get it right this time? Now, if someone can point to me some info that shows his execution was _deliberately rushed in order to beat the possible legislation_, as opposed to merely his time coming up, I’ll vigorously condemn _ **that** _. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/54 "2011-07-12T13:24:40Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Funny… Not. Not trying to be funny. If we execute him now, it’s legal. If we wait, it won’t be. It remains equally just. > [@](#): > > Now, if someone can point to me some info that shows his execution was _deliberately rushed in order to beat the possible legislation_, as opposed to merely his time coming up, I’ll vigorously condemn _ **that** _. I see no reason to wait for ex post facto changes. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/55 "2011-07-12T13:45:19Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > In many countries the populations is registered, and if you’re arrested they’ll discover fairly quickly that you are, or are not, a citizen (or that you are not registered, in which case they can ask you about citizenship). In the US, of course, this is not the case. > . In France, someone being arrested would be very early asked for an ID (French identity card, residency permit, etc…). So they would know if the person is a citizen or not (at least if he doesn’t refuse to provide information). That said, being a French national doesn’t prevent you from being _also_ a Mexican citizen (for instance). And I’ve no clue if the convention applies for dual citizens (or rather whether or not France applies it for dual citizens). Seriously, I can’t fathom how it came that, for years, nobody realized this man wasn’t an American. I assume there has been some serious enquiries about his past, given the kind of crimes he was guilty of. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/56 "2011-07-12T13:47:22Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > In this case, and probably in the vast majority, it wouldn’t be rocket science. “Where were you born? Mexico? OK, have you ever applied for U.S. citizenship?” That would pretty much do the trick, or at least gather enough information to allow law enforcement to contact relevant authorities to figure it out. They manage it all the time when figuring out whether someone who has been convicted should have an immigration hold put on him/her after finishing a criminal sentence. But in this case, he made his confession before he was arrested. When Arizona passed a law requiring police officers to ascertain the immigration status of people they detained without arresting, you – and many other people – argued that this was a terrible thing for police to do. Here, you seem to be arguing that it’s practically a requirement of good global citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/57 "2011-07-12T13:50:26Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > In this case, and probably in the vast majority, it wouldn’t be rocket science. “Where were you born? Mexico? OK, have you ever applied for U.S. citizenship?” That would pretty much do the trick, or at least gather enough information to allow law enforcement to contact relevant authorities to figure it out. They manage it all the time when figuring out whether someone who has been convicted should have an immigration hold put on him/her after finishing a criminal sentence. The Supreme Court ruled that the person needs to raise the issue before or at trial, not four years after conviction. Which seems to me to be consistent with the notion that any questioning of nationality based on skin color is racist and so on. If he wants to be treated as a foreign national, it is up to him to make it clear that he is a foreign national. Of course, to be fair he probably didn’t know that he wasn’t a US citizen. Cite by Captain Amazing - > [@](#): > > **if he so requests** , the competent authorities of the receiving State shall, without delay, inform the consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner. Doesn’t look to me like Texas violated any treaties. The arrestee has to ask, according to the terms of the treaty. This scumbag didn’t ask. Plus, the nasty little son-of-a-bitch wasn’t in custody when he incriminated himself, so the consular lawyers aren’t going to be able to tell him to keep silent. > [@](#): > > Seriously, I can’t fathom how it came that, for years, nobody realized this man wasn’t an American. Because it doesn’t make any difference, once he is convicted. As the treaty says, he has to request that his consulate be notified. If he fails to do so, and is convicted, it is no longer relevant. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/58 "2011-07-12T14:09:09Z")
He had to request his consular be notified, but the US has an obligation to inform him of his right to consular notification. Leal was never informed of his right that he could do that. Similar to, you have to invoke your right to silence, but you must be informed of your right to silence (via Miranda). ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/59 "2011-07-12T14:31:39Z")
Even if Congress enacts a law enforcing the Vienna Convention, would it be able to apply retroactively to people whose rights under the convention were infringed before the law was passed? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/60 "2011-07-12T14:34:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But in this case, he made his confession before he was arrested. > > When Arizona passed a law requiring police officers to ascertain the immigration status of people they detained without arresting, you – and many other people – argued that this was a terrible thing for police to do. > > Here, you seem to be arguing that it’s practically a requirement of good global citizenship. You honestly can’t see a difference between officers asking about the immigration status of random people they encounter on the street, and an officer asking about the birthplace of a murder suspect at some point between initial interrogation and a Supreme Court appeal? There were numerous opportunities to provide him with his treaty rights. Even if he’d been given the opportunity to request consular assistance after his initial confession, who knows how things might have turned out differently? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676.md?page=4)