# The execution of Humberto Leal Garcia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676 "2011-07-11T22:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/141 "2011-07-15T17:13:08Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > If they were here legally for a while but then fell out of status, they could well have driver’s licenses or Social Security cards, or all kinds of other things. Which also happens when folks were never here legally. Either way, how does a review of such documents help the authorities realize the guy with an all-American license or whatever should get consular treatment? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/142 "2011-07-15T17:21:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Which also happens when folks were never here legally. Either way, how does a review of such documents help the authorities realize the guy with an all-American license or whatever should get consular treatment? The difference is that these SS cards, licenses, etc. would be totally legit, not forged, and would be just as valid as proof of identity as anything else. A SS card issued to someone with a temporary immigration status carries an endorsement that it is only valid with DHS authorization. That would be a big hint that the bearer might not be a U.S. citizen. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/143 "2011-07-17T19:20:41Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Was the girl he raped & murdered given consular access? Was she advised of her rights? Did she have access to a ‘better’ lawyer? > > He committed the crime; he paid the penalty. > Where do you see any miscarriage of justice? By this, no trial is necessary since criminals have no rights. But without a trial wherein his rights are afforded, how do we know he is really a criminal? THEN once the question is settled, we strip him of most rights, because, as a criminal now, he is not entitled to most of them. At _what point_ do we strip criminals of their rights? Before we are certain the criminal is a criminal? If that is the case you shouldn’t be concerned about being stripped of your rights, because we can figure out you are a criminal afterwards by an unfair process wherein you have no rights. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/144 "2011-07-17T19:29:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Article VI, Clause 2 of the US Constitution: > > Seems pretty straight forward to me. US federal law trumps Texas state law and clearly so do treaties. Says it right there. I would certainly think a state needs to abide by treaties the US has entered in to. I am shocked at the Supreme Court over this. > > Abiding by the treaty does not mean that Texas couldn’t prosecute this guy. Texas could also execute him. Texas should have informed the Mexican consulate of this though. We expect the same treatment for Americans abroad. This is not quite as simple as you make it, Whack-a-Mole. First, yes the Constitution is Supreme Law. But only Statutes and Treaties that do not conflict with the Constitution are likewise supreme law. Next Congress has to have a power that Texas also has, if federal law is going to trump state law. Do not forget that the Constitution has the tenth amendment which grants powers to Texas that Congress does NOT have. If congress writes a law in an area that they do not have power in, but Texas does, and Congress’ law contradicts the Texas law, the Texas law trumps the federal law per the tenth amendment. As for any other questions, I believe that consular access is something the defendant must assert, as well as using a different lawyer than the one appointed. He can’t just remain silent on these and then claim error. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/145 "2011-07-19T15:58:51Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > There is a municipal residents’ and resident aliens’ register in France, Spain or Germany? I imagine there is some kind of voters’ registration in every country, but do you have to register your residence with some municipal authority apart from that? > > Not arguing, you just made me curious. As for Germany, there is. You apply for ID cards, passports, driving licences etc. at city hall (as an interface for the appropriate agencies), and the munipialities administer all elections on the voting precinct level (the electoral register is basically an automatically generated selected data dump of the residents’ register). So the canonical record of your residence is with the municipiality. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/146 "2011-07-21T13:15:10Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I am curious. If someone is arrested in France, Germany or Spain are they asked as a matter of course what they’re nationality is? In Spain they’ll be asked for ID, which (if provided) will indicate the nationality. You can be asked for ID at any time as well, you’re supposed to carry one if above the age of 14 but if you don’t have it with you you can show it later (exact protocol will depend on why you were asked for it and how you reacted, ranging from “arrested for suspicious behavior” to “being reminded to carry it”). Re. **TheMightyAtlas** ’ question: Spain has a permanent residents’ register which is kept at the municipal level, but it’s not compulsory; you only need to register if you want to vote there or have access to other local benefits (for example, many regions provide some social services to anybody but others only to people who are registered as permanent residents in one of the regions’ townships). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/147 "2011-07-21T22:06:29Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Was the girl he raped & murdered given consular access? Was she advised of her rights? Did she have access to a ‘better’ lawyer? > > He committed the crime; he paid the penalty. > Where do you see any miscarriage of justice? There isn’t a misacrraige of justice. he was not coerced, he received counsel, he got a fair trial. The problem is that Texas did something that peopel think was in contravention of a treaty we signed. Now Mexico can arrest Americans and execute them according to their laws without ever giving them access to American counsel. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/148 "2011-07-21T22:07:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Based on what you’ve written here, the Supreme Court’s decision seems dubious. The treaty had been signed and the legislation that would have implemented it had been submitted as a bill. The court seems to have essentially said that while the law will soon make it illegal to execute Garcia, Texas could still do it if they hurried. Gaming the system like that makes a mockery of due process. > > On the surface, I don’t think any error was made in Texas. The government does not have an obligation to ascertain your foreign citizenship or determine if you are eligible for any other special status. The accused and his attorney has to raise these issues. Good points. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/149 "2011-07-22T12:59:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [Quote=Little Nemo] > Based on what you’ve written here, the Supreme Court’s decision seems dubious. The treaty had been signed and the legislation that would have implemented it had been submitted as a bill. The court seems to have essentially said that while the law will soon make it illegal to execute Garcia, Texas could still do it if they hurried. Gaming the system like that makes a mockery of due process. > > On the surface, I don’t think any error was made in Texas. The government does not have an obligation to ascertain your foreign citizenship or determine if you are eligible for any other special status. The accused and his attorney has to raise these issues. Good points. [/QUOTE] How would implementing the bill have made it illegal to execute Garcia? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/150 "2011-07-22T13:32:15Z")
IIRC, as a general rule legislation implementing non-self-executing treaties is deemed to operate retrospectively to the date of US ratification of the underlying treaty (unless the legislation itself states otherwise). Since operation of the legislation would void Garcia’s confession, he would have to be retried and the confession excluded, I think. In a case like this, where the underlying treaty was ratified 50-odd years ago, maybe an exception would be made. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/151 "2011-07-22T13:46:54Z")
But his confession was during a non-custodial interview. If I understand it correctly (and it’s entirely possible that I don’t), the notification of his right to consular access would not have been given until he was arrested so there would have been no reason to exclude the confession. Plus, as **Little Nemo** said, the accused and his attorney have to raise the issue. Since they didn’t until after the trial (I think), it was their fault and not Texas’. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676/152 "2011-07-22T13:53:49Z")
You’re right. I had forgotten about the timing. The attorney part doesn’t signify, though; had he been granted consular access, he would have had a consular attorney, not a public defender, so it’s a circular argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-execution-of-humberto-leal-garcia/588676.md?page=7)