# The Eye of Sauron **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 30, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889 "2004-06-30T14:51:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/41 "2004-07-14T15:41:11Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > He does _not_ touch the Ring. You see a POV shot of him reaching for the Ring, then the image of the Eye. You never see him touch the Ring. > > You may interpret it as him touching it and getting “bitch-slapped:”, but I thi8nk that it’s just proximity that triggers the warning of the presence of Evil (I don’t think the Eye is “bitch-slapping” him – the Ring would _love_ for someone of Gandalf’s power to wield it). That’s consistent with Jackson’s vision. Hmmm. OK, I just looked at the EE, and you’re right, we never actually see Gandalf touch the ring; it seems open to interpretation – the camera cuts as he’s about to touch it – but I’ll give you that one. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/42 "2004-07-15T03:38:10Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It was obvious to me from the start that Jackson intended that floating Eye to be Sauron in the movie. … > > In any event, in Jackson’s re-imagining Sauron lost his body when he lost the Ring, and he pretty clearly can’t get it back until he reclaims the Ring. It’s not Tolkien’s vision, but it’s clear and consistent in the film, and I picked up on it early enough. [nitpick] I’d agree that this is Jackson’s interpretation, but I’d disagree that he decided this from the start of the script. The Lord of the Rings; The Art of The Return of the King reproduces designs for costumes, sets, armor, props, etc. [Warren Mahy](http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0537272/), one of the designers from WETA Workshop, talks about an accompanying illustration of Sauron’s body: > [@](#): > > I came in one weekend to do something else, and ended up drawing this. At the time, I was designing Sauron’s armor, and I was envisaging that at one point we might look down from the inside of Barad-dur, and see this figure moving through it, with its minions moving around it. I guess this was the burnt form of what Sauron used to be. At this time we weren’t sure whether Sauron was going to appear or how he was going to work, so I was just thinking of his physical form. The reference to Sauron’s armor implies that this was early on, while they were scripting the Prologue battle scene. The rest of the quote (and the position of the illustration in the book), however, seems are talking about how Sauron might appear at the end of the trilogy. It seems clear that at the early stages, Jackson and his team had not decided on the “Sauron can’t manifest himself yet” interpretation. [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/43 "2004-07-15T14:04:19Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > He does _not_ touch the Ring. You see a POV shot of him reaching for the Ring, then the image of the Eye. You never see him touch the Ring. > > You may interpret it as him touching it and getting “bitch-slapped:”, but I thi8nk that it’s just proximity that triggers the warning of the presence of Evil (I don’t think the Eye is “bitch-slapping” him – the Ring would _love_ for someone of Gandalf’s power to wield it). That’s consistent with Jackson’s vision. And of the writers. A point I recall Philippa Boyens making in one of the director’s-and-writers’ commentaries is that the writers were constantly battling to make the ring into its own character. I believe it’s much easier in the printed world to accept that the ring is evil - but in a visual format, the audience must _see_ it. That means accentuating its danger, and doing so consistently throughout the series. Oh, now I remember when she made the comment - it’s in the EE to TT, during the scenes with Faramir. In essence, the writers chose to make consistency in treating the Ring paramount, even if it resulted in changing Faramir rather drastically. That meant showing Faramir tempted and highly ambivalent about Frodo and Sam, whereas in the book Faramir is all but immune to the Ring; after a brief bit of suspecion, he pretty quickly says, “Um, how can I help?” And on reflection, I think Boyens has a point. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/44 "2004-07-15T14:46:42Z")
In the _Silmarillion_, Sauron’s depicted as more of a subtle, mysterious, Machievellian type, as opposed to his boss Morgoth, the brutal, savage monster. As one of the Valar, Sauron was originally fair and beautiful of form, and every time he lost his life, he got more digusting and rotten looking when he came back. For instance, when the Numenoreans sailed over and demanded he surrender to them, he did so. They took him back to Numenor and threw hiim in a cell, but he said the right things, flattered the right people, and eventually got released. His silver tongue endeared him to the King of Numenor, who kept him around as kind of a court jester, then a close advisor. Sauron eventually convinced the King of Numenor that it wasn’t fair that elves got to go the Undying Lands and men didn’t. The determined King then took his armada to the Undying Lands, and as a result the gods got so angry, they destroyed the fleet and flooded the island of Numenor, killing everyone on the island, including Sauron. Sauron destroyed the Numenors with just his powers of persuasion. The Numenoreans who were on Middle Earth at the time were absent from the deluge. They became Dunadan, of which Aragorn is descended. Sauron managed to reform, but he was no longer fair of face, so he became more cadaverous. After he was slain by Isildur, he again could not reform as solid as before, so he became more discorporate. It was mainly his will that was keeping Mordor intact, and getting the rings back would have made him whole again. Interesting thing about Sauron’s portrayal in _Silmarillion_: IIRC Tolkien only vaguely describes his appearance and never actually quotes him as saying anything, or shows anything from his PoV. Same as in LotR. All his actions are described as indirect, adding to his mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/45 "2004-07-15T15:12:29Z")
Here’s what a huge geek I am: I didn’t look at the thread title very carefully, and opened it thinking it was about the Eye of _Argon_. And I was kind of disappointed when it wasn’t! :o ---
**Author:** ![Chunky\_Bum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Chunky\_Bum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chunky_Bum)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/46 "2004-07-15T15:27:13Z")
> [@Knowed Out](#): > > Sauron managed to reform, but he was no longer fair of face, so he became more cadaverous. After he was slain by Isildur, he again could not reform as solid as before, so he became more discorporate. It was mainly his will that was keeping Mordor intact, and getting the rings back would have made him whole again. No, he was not discorporate. Sauron did make a new body for himself when he took up residence at Dol Guldur. During the War of the Ring, the time covered in Lord of the Rings, Sauron did have a physical body. From The Silmarillion: _True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth._ From Letters #246: _In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of ‘mortals’ no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. **Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.** In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance._ …and we know Gollum had seen the Dark Lord himself, reporting to Frodo and Sam that _“He has only four [fingers] on the Black Hand, but they are enough.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/47 "2004-07-15T19:42:08Z")
Thanks for clearing that up Chunky. Still, there’s no soild description of Sauron. All Gollum remembers is the 4 fingers. Nothing about the face, skin, hair, etc and Tolkien’s letter just remarks on his size. Sauron’s appearance, although terrifying, is still mysterious and vague. ---
**Author:** ![Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f04885/32.png) [@Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ninja_Pizza_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/48 "2004-07-16T01:03:06Z")
OK, I’m probably missing something, so please, be gentle. Just because Gollum saw Sauron in enough detail to count his fingers, doesn’t necessarily mean Sauron was solid. If Sauron was building his strength back up from the point of physical destruction, wouldn’t he almost have to start more as an image, almost like a hologram? ---
**Author:** ![Mithgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mithgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithgard)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/49 "2004-07-16T02:12:32Z")
> [@Knowed Out](#): > > In the _Silmarillion_, Sauron’s depicted as more of a subtle, mysterious, Machievellian type, as opposed to his boss Morgoth, the brutal, savage monster. > > As one of the Valar, Sauron was originally fair and beautiful of form, and every time he lost his life, he got more digusting and rotten looking when he came back. For instance, when the Numenoreans sailed over and demanded he surrender to them, he did so. They took him back to Numenor and threw hiim in a cell, but he said the right things, flattered the right people, and eventually got released. His silver tongue endeared him to the King of Numenor, who kept him around as kind of a court jester, then a close advisor. Sauron eventually convinced the King of Numenor that it wasn’t fair that elves got to go the Undying Lands and men didn’t. The determined King then took his armada to the Undying Lands, and as a result the gods got so angry, they destroyed the fleet and flooded the island of Numenor, killing everyone on the island, including Sauron. Sauron destroyed the Numenors with just his powers of persuasion. The Numenoreans who were on Middle Earth at the time were absent from the deluge. They became Dunadan, of which Aragorn is descended. > > Sauron managed to reform, but he was no longer fair of face, so he became more cadaverous. After he was slain by Isildur, he again could not reform as solid as before, so he became more discorporate. It was mainly his will that was keeping Mordor intact, and getting the rings back would have made him whole again. > > Interesting thing about Sauron’s portrayal in _Silmarillion_: IIRC Tolkien only vaguely describes his appearance and never actually quotes him as saying anything, or shows anything from his PoV. Same as in LotR. All his actions are described as indirect, adding to his mystery. Little correction—The Valar did not kill everyone on the island. In the banner of Gondor, the 7 stars on top of the white tree are to represent the 7 ships that sailed/were spared by the Valar from the destruction of Numenor and its people. Those ships were the few that resisted sailing to the undying lands, they were the people that eventually led to the line of Isildur and in LOTR, to Aragorn [/ correction] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mithgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mithgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithgard)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/50 "2004-07-16T02:15:14Z")
Also as a side note. I have read the Trilogy and the Hobbit several times. I just recently finished the Silmarillion and now I keep on hearing of these “letters” that Tolkien had. Are they available at book stores in form of a book to purchase??? I would be very interested in looking over those in order to get a fuller/better understanding of the details of this vast creation of Tolkien 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/51 "2004-07-16T02:40:52Z")
> [@Mithgard](#): > > Also as a side note. I have read the Trilogy and the Hobbit several times. I just recently finished the Silmarillion and now I keep on hearing of these “letters” that Tolkien had. Are they available at book stores in form of a book to purchase??? > I would be very interested in looking over those in order to get a fuller/better understanding of the details of this vast creation of Tolkien 😃 Congratulations on beginning your JRRT scholarship. You’ll want to re-read Sil a few more times, and follow it up by reading “Unfinished Tales”. For this, I’d suggest you get the “Atlas of Middle-Earth” by Fonsted, which does a lovely job of mapping and graphing out the creation of Arda, the migrations of the elves, and the wars of Beleriand. Once you’ve gotten that down pretty well, you’ll want to get “Letters by JRRT”, which is quite a fascinating read! It gives a lot of episodic insight into the story, including JRRT’s take on what would have happened in the end if Gollum had repented, if Frodo had claimed the ring successfully in the end, etc. It’s an invaluable resource for a Tolkien scholar. Digest the above, and you’ll be (IMHO) a worthy graduate-student type of Middle-earth explorer. But to really rise to the next level, obtain HOMES (History of MIddle Earth Series volumes 1-12). This has virtually all of JRRT’s writings related to Arda during his lifetime, with copious notes by his son Christopher. You’ll meet such interesting characters as Aelfwine, the english mariner who managed to sail to Tol Eressëa. Also Alboin and Audoin, a father and son pair who were re-incarnations of Elendil and Isildur. Also Bingo Baggins, a mysterious gimpy Hobbit named Trotter, and a very bloodthirsty Frodo Baggins in the initial draft of “the scouring of the shire”. Do all this and you’ll be able to name the missing Valar (like Omar-Amillo or Meassë), differentiate Valinorean from Qendi (which is different from Quendi), and surprise your friends with the trivial info that the _original_ Denethor was actually a very lost gnome. You’ll also at least be able to differentiate Quenya from Sindarin, if not be able to speak it. And you’ll come to grasp just how big a language geek JRRT really was. Vist your local bookstore (in person or online) to obtain these excellent books. Ilu ná vanya, fanya, ëari, i cemen, ar ilya i ëa tessen ---
**Author:** ![Mithgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mithgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithgard)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/52 "2004-07-16T03:05:00Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Congratulations on beginning your JRRT scholarship. > > You’ll want to re-read Sil a few more times, and follow it up by reading “Unfinished Tales”. For this, I’d suggest you get the “Atlas of Middle-Earth” by Fonsted, which does a lovely job of mapping and graphing out the creation of Arda, the migrations of the elves, and the wars of Beleriand. > > Once you’ve gotten that down pretty well, you’ll want to get “Letters by JRRT”, which is quite a fascinating read! It gives a lot of episodic insight into the story, including JRRT’s take on what would have happened in the end if Gollum had repented, if Frodo had claimed the ring successfully in the end, etc. It’s an invaluable resource for a Tolkien scholar. > > Digest the above, and you’ll be (IMHO) a worthy graduate-student type of Middle-earth explorer. > > But to really rise to the next level, obtain HOMES (History of MIddle Earth Series volumes 1-12). This has virtually all of JRRT’s writings related to Arda during his lifetime, with copious notes by his son Christopher. You’ll meet such interesting characters as Aelfwine, the english mariner who managed to sail to Tol Eressëa. Also Alboin and Audoin, a father and son pair who were re-incarnations of Elendil and Isildur. Also Bingo Baggins, a mysterious gimpy Hobbit named Trotter, and a very bloodthirsty Frodo Baggins in the initial draft of “the scouring of the shire”. > > Do all this and you’ll be able to name the missing Valar (like Omar-Amillo or Meassë), differentiate Valinorean from Qendi (which is different from Quendi), and surprise your friends with the trivial info that the _original_ Denethor was actually a very lost gnome. You’ll also at least be able to differentiate Quenya from Sindarin, if not be able to speak it. And you’ll come to grasp just how big a language geek JRRT really was. > > Vist your local bookstore (in person or online) to obtain these excellent books. > > Ilu ná vanya, fanya, ëari, > i cemen, ar ilya i ëa tessen Wowzers…I never knew there was soo much more in this ‘collection’. I actually just finished a class being taught here at my University called “Tolkien and Fantasy”. It focused on the FOTR, TTT, ROTK, and quite a bit on the Silmarillion. Being a Classics/Archaeologist (once I graduate at least), I found this class very interesting as I am immensely interested in history (fictional or not). This is further increased by my love for languages (being able to speak 3 of them fluently, as well as 3 others enough to get by). So looking at all these ‘dialects’ and such is just amazing. I am nowhere near being able to read what you wrote at teh end of your post (at least not w/o referring to some online aid 😉 ) But in any case, it looks like I’ll have to save some cash to purchase the aforementioned books/letters/maps (maps I am happy to say are about as fascinating to me as to Bilbo 😃 ) \ …to the Bookstore… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mithgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mithgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithgard)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/53 "2004-07-16T03:23:32Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Ilu ná vanya, fanya, ëari, > i cemen, ar ilya i ëa tessen Took me 15 min…but got it The Universe is beautiful, the clouds, the seas, the earth and all that there is… could not get what ‘tessen’ means :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/54 "2004-07-16T20:29:20Z")
> [@Mithgard](#): > > (maps I am happy to say are about as fascinating to me as to Bilbo 😃 ) > …to the Bookstore… 😃 I think I like you! The Atlas becomes an even bigger “must” for a history and map lover Tolkienite. BTW, _tessen_ is an inclusive modifier. The World is fair, the sky, the seas, the earth, and all that is in them. Nice translation job. But next time just stick the phrase into Google! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mithgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mithgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithgard)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/55 "2004-07-17T06:44:56Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > I think I like you! The Atlas becomes an even bigger “must” for a history and map lover Tolkienite. > > BTW, _tessen_ is an inclusive modifier. > The World is fair, the sky, the seas, > the earth, and all that is in them. > > Nice translation job. But next time just stick the phrase into Google! 😃 bahh…google is fine and all, but its more fun to actually have to look for each word. THat way you’re actually doing the work and might pick up a few things along the way 😉 …much better that way 😉 inclusive modifier…_shudder_…reminds me of my latin and greek classes…EEEEEeeEk!!1 ---
**Author:** ![Mithgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mithgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithgard)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/56 "2004-07-17T06:46:05Z")
> [@Mithgard](#): > > bahh…google is fine and all, but its more fun to actually have to look for each word. THat way you’re actually doing the work and might pick up a few things along the way 😉 …much better that way 😉 > > inclusive modifier…_shudder_…reminds me of my latin and greek classes…EEEEEeeEk!!1 P.S. - and who is Firiel (of whom the song seems to belong to, or at least was sung by?) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/57 "2004-07-17T19:37:55Z")
Firiel was the daughter of Ondoher, one of the later kings of Gondor. She married Arvedui, “last king” of Arnor. When her brothers Artamir and Faramir were slain along with her father, her husband Arvedui claimed the kingship on the basis of descent from Elendil, High King of both Arnor and Gondor (which title Isildur also held briefly). This claim was rejected by the Lords of Gondor, who named Earnil king. Her eldest son, Aranarth, became 1st chieftain of the Dunedain of the North, after the fall of Arnor and the death of Arvedui. So we see that Aragorn is descended from both Isildur and from his brother, Anarion. Whether this Firiel is the one to whom the song is attributed is not known (at least not by me). JRRT wrote “Firiel’s Song” about 1940. I’m not sure when he fleshed out the lines of the kings of Arnor and Gondor, but I think it was later. I’ve also not located any other characters named Firiel in JRRT’s writings. Tho there is a large amount of fanfic (which I avoid like the plague) using her name for characters like Galadriel’s sister (shudder) and such. ---
**Author:** ![Mithgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mithgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithgard)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889/58 "2004-07-20T16:55:09Z")
Well, I’ve managed to buy ‘Unfinished Tales’ only, (jeebus these books sure arent inexpensive :eek: ), anywho. Read a few pages and well worth it already 🙂 Gonna have to wait for my next paycheck before buying the Atlas though, lol Off I go 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eye-of-sauron/252889.md?page=2)