# The F-16 pilots that were going to ram flight 93. Survivable? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 18, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494 "2017-03-18T18:07:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/21 "2017-03-19T04:51:46Z")
I would say fly up to the tail, drive the nose of your fighter into the fat end of the tail, and you can control the jetliner’s attitude. Push the nose down to a smooth descent, and drive the plane to the ground, relying on the other fighter to prevent it from rolling. Near the ground, when the crash is imminent, if you cannot throttle back to get free, you have to roll to one side so that you have less chance of nailing the rudder when you eject. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/22 "2017-03-19T04:57:47Z")
LSLGuy will be here as soon as he finishes his pi. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/23 "2017-03-19T05:00:34Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > What about getting behind the airliner and setting the autopilot on and any collision avoidance (if there is any) off. Terrorists won’t be able to see you. Increase throttle until the closure rate is such that it will impact, if the airliner doesn’t change course, in 30 seconds. Eject. But as someone else mentioned, ejecting will probably change the course of the F-16 (presumably, push its nose down.) So you might have to aim higher than the Boeing, so that when you eject, it will push the F-16 back down into a collision trajectory. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/24 "2017-03-19T06:03:02Z")
I’d be inclined to just aim to hit the tail and hope I survived well enough to bang out afterward, anything else is getting too far in to shooting-the-gun-out-of-the-bad-guy’s-hand territory. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/25 "2017-03-19T06:42:37Z")
I’m not a pilot (F-16 or otherwise), but my first thought would be to do what they did in WWII against the V1. Spitfires used to use their wingtips to push against the V1 bomb’s wings and flip it over. The V1 would go out of control and crash, and the spitfire would fly home. Unlike the V1, a passenger plane has a pilot that can react. Still, I would think that flipping a big jetliner like that onto its back would be difficult to recover from. Do it while the plane is low enough and it’s not going to have enough altitude to recover. And since you aren’t ramming into the plane, the F-16 should survive. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/26 "2017-03-19T06:50:23Z")
Also note there’s a big difference between what an experienced airline pilot could do to counter the F-16, and what a hijacker who took a few hours of simulator training could do. Put the airplane out of its normal operating parameters and while a skilled pilot could recover a hijacker can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Debillw3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@Debillw3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debillw3)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/27 "2017-03-19T06:56:23Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Also note there’s a big difference between what an experienced airline pilot could do to counter the F-16, and what a hijacker who took a few hours of simulator training could do. Put the airplane out of its normal operating parameters and while a skilled pilot could recover a hijacker can’t. That’s a very, very good point. We have been mostly discussing the capability of the passenger jet itself, rather than the capability of the pilot. In this situation, the two are going to be notably different. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/28 "2017-03-19T08:22:03Z")
How effective would have the pilot taking out his pistol and shooting it in the opposing cockpit be, similar to this documentary scene? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/OLUGBujl2-0/hqdefault.jpg "Christopher Walken takes down a Jet with a pistol !!") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUGBujl2-0) ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/29 "2017-03-19T08:32:29Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > Are you okay with the US military killing its own citizens on American soil? I can only speak for myself, but the way i see it is this. If i am on board a plane that someone has taken to turn into a self guided missile, i am already dead, you can not save me. You have no choice, you are not killing me, you have to stop 100’s or 1000’s of others from joining me in death. If you take out the plane, my death stops the death of others, maybe you can find some value in that. It is a situation where you don’t get the luxury of being ok with it or not. To quote Spock “The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few Or the one.” ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/30 "2017-03-19T08:35:51Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > How effective would have the pilot taking out his pistol and shooting it in the opposing cockpit be, similar to this documentary scene? > > [https://youtu.be/OLUGBujl2-0?t=36s](https://youtu.be/OLUGBujl2-0?t=36s) Well i have to think that opening his cockpit at what 300 400mph? would probably prove to be a big mistake. That aside, i think the air movement might make it hard to take the shot. I think a pistol round would drift really bad, probably just shoot a passenger? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/31 "2017-03-19T08:59:09Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > LSLGuy will be here as soon as he finishes his pi. He did answer this question after a [fashion 6 months ago.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19626255&postcount=24) ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/32 "2017-03-19T10:43:40Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > Would bringing down flight 93 down in that manner require a definite suicide attack? Would they have had to ram the airliner at full speed, or could they have clipped the wings or tail and then eject? I don’t think there’s any way you could use the military jet as a ram, except resulting in break in in midair of both planes. That would tend to exclude the ability to eject. It would have to be piloted in as a suicide mission. You ask about clipping the wing… well the wing is kinda short and stubby and connects to the frame of the aircraft just below the pilot… damage there stuffs the pilot. Well the damage is to the fuel tanks… The damage would be more serious to the smaller aircraft than to the large one, so I really think the requisitie damage to the jumbo jet would only occur from suicidal collision that severely damages the target plane. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/33 "2017-03-19T12:27:21Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > Are you okay with the US military killing its own citizens on American soil? I’m not. There were 44 people on the flight 93, including 4 highjackers. This means there were also 40 innocent civilians onboard. At the time we had no idea where that plane was heading and what the target was. Only that it was hijacked and that 3 other hijacked planes had caused massive damage and loss of life. They didn’t have time to arm the planes, the had to get up in the air right now and do what they could with what they had. The only choice they had was to ram it. The pilots themselves agreed on who would take the cockpit out and the tail. So while I agree with Posse Comitatus in general in this case the use of the military to take down that plane, with passengers aboard was the right decision. Perhaps all of use sitting in a circle and singing Kum By Ya was an option, but I doubt it would have worked. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/34 "2017-03-19T12:53:39Z")
The article sort of glides over the part that I don’t understand here - why were the planes unarmed? Why are fighter pilots using themselves as missiles instead of using… uh… missiles? ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/35 "2017-03-19T13:09:30Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > The article sort of glides over the part that I don’t understand here - why were the planes unarmed? Why are fighter pilots using themselves as missiles instead of using… uh… missiles? Thank you. I read through this whole thread and wondered why no one asked this. Why take the chance of totaling the fighter jet? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/36 "2017-03-19T13:09:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But as someone else mentioned, ejecting will probably change the course of the F-16 (presumably, push its nose down.) So you might have to aim higher than the Boeing, so that when you eject, it will push the F-16 back down into a collision trajectory. There’s also two F-16s, remember. If I were in charge, I’d order the first pilot to try the line up a crash course then eject a few seconds early plan. If that didn’t work, then I’d be the one to do the crash into them first and then eject if still possible plan. I’m presuming that the pilots in question would likely already have a good sense of where they should try to hit the other plane (wing/engine/tail/whatever). ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/37 "2017-03-19T15:46:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > . . . Or how about making the F-16 “sit” on one of the Boeing’s wings? Just have the F-16 literally sit on one of the wings. Surely that would put the Boeing out of control. But the F-16 pilot could not survive that, so you might just as well ram. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > I’m not a pilot (F-16 or otherwise), but my first thought would be to do what they did in WWII against the V1. Spitfires used to use their wingtips to push against the V1 bomb’s wings and flip it over. The V1 would go out of control and crash, and the spitfire would fly home. > > Unlike the V1, a passenger plane has a pilot that can react. . . . That’s one problem… Another is that the passenger airliner is so much larger than the fighter. The fighter’s wings would fail before the Boeing’s would. Also, I’m dubious this would be survivable. Both planes would probably go out of control. (If an F-16 goes out of control in a complete tumble, can a good pilot recover from it?) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/38 "2017-03-19T16:14:00Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > An airplane is designed to continue straight and level without input from the pilot so it would seem that you could set the F-16 on its course and eject. Once the pilot’s ejected the plane is out of control and is not aerodynamically consistent with how the autopilot understands the plane to be. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/39 "2017-03-19T16:24:17Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > The article sort of glides over the part that I don’t understand here - why were the planes unarmed? Why are fighter pilots using themselves as missiles instead of using… uh… missiles? > [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Thank you. I read through this whole thread and wondered why no one asked this. Why take the chance of totaling the fighter jet? In those days the US did not have actual armed interceptors sitting alert. At least not in most of the US. So HQ found the closest airplanes they had anywhere that were at least fueled and with crews in the office. Which jets happened to had already been loaded for a training mission with no munitions. And HQ told them to “take off right friggin’ now and do the best you can. You’re our only hope. We’re all counting on you.” So they did. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494/40 "2017-03-19T16:32:32Z")
An effective strategy would be for the F-16 to damage Flight 93’s elevator at a low closing speed (say, 5 mph). The airliner would then not be controllable, while the damage to the F-16 might well be manageable. At worst, the F-16 pilot could safely eject. The idea that this was definitely a suicide mission seems very far-fetched. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-f-16-pilots-that-were-going-to-ram-flight-93-survivable/782494.md?page=3)