# The Fairytale of New York (The Pogues) -- need a new lyric! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 4, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515 "2013-12-04T21:42:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![smaje1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@smaje1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smaje1)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/21 "2013-12-05T23:56:43Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Is slut not kinda offensive too? I think “slut” is still a word you can say in polite society. “Faggot” is different, somehow. I work in a prettttttty liberal office, so “slut” and “arse” wouldn’t be so frowned upon as “faggot.” ---
**Author:** ![smaje1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@smaje1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smaje1)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/22 "2013-12-05T23:58:31Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > This is what happens when you find a stranger in the alps. Now get all these monkey loving snakes off my Monday to Friday plane. Yipee ki-yayy Mr. Falcon I’m not sure what this means… like, at _all_. Explain? ---
**Author:** ![smaje1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@smaje1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smaje1)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/23 "2013-12-05T23:59:36Z")
> [@smaje1](#): > > I’m not sure what this means… like, at _all_. Explain? OK, just googled it. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/24 "2013-12-06T18:15:06Z")
> [@smaje1](#): > > OK, just googled it. LOL. I was fairly loopy when I wrote that, though surprisingly sober. Just a mild cold and a long day. Still I would politely request that you find a different song to sing, if you don’t want to say a bad word. You’ll just be ruining a great song, and the people who do know the song–including I would guess, a few of your gay co-workers–will know it. You shouldn’t bowdlerize art anyway, unless it’s awful, which Fairytale certainly isn’t. There’s good Christmas music you can sing without having to either change it or possibly cause offense. [Here’s one](http://drunkonstephen.tumblr.com/post/37824390322/mandy-patinkin-michael-stipe-stephen-colbert). [Here’s another](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvxu4c_mavis-staples-jeff-tweedy-sean-lennon-happy-xmas-war-is-over-12-13-2012-colbert-report_music). ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/25 "2013-12-07T05:00:27Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > You shouldn’t bowdlerize art anyway Chinks do it, Japs do it, up in Lapland even Laps do it. ---
**Author:** ![Slade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@Slade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slade)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/26 "2013-12-07T10:17:00Z")
There’s also the danger that you’re patronising your gay colleagues here. Why not actually ask one or two of them if they’d find your band’s use of the word “faggot” unacceptable in this song rather than automatically assuming so on their behalf? You might find their attitude is rather more robust than you imagine. I think the reason so many people here find your intention to vandalise this particular song so objectionable is because it spectacularly misses the point of everything The Pogues and Shane MacGowan’s songwriting stand for. The Pogues were all about acknowledging the sometimes ugly realities of our flawed world, but managing to find a fierce joy in that world anyway. The literary equivalent of what you’re proposing here would be having Walt Disney adapt a Charles Bukowski novel, and I hope that helps you see how misguided it is. Singing the song intact would not mean you’re endorsing the use of the word “faggot” as an insult, merely that you’re acknowledging that’s the kind of word a drunken, angry, working class character like the woman in the song might throw around at moments of stress. Prissily tidying up her language rips the heart from MacGowan’s honest depiction of that character. She’s as likely to reach for the word “braggart” in this situation as I am to start spouting Latin in casual conversation. Making your bowdlerisation rhyme (however awkwardly) is not the only issue here. As you’ll gather, I’m very uneasy about attempts to air-brush any art (high or low) before daring to expose it to the public. In support of this view, I would cite the following: “No-one has the right not to be offended.” - _John Cleese_. “Being offended is the natural consequence of leaving one’s home. […] When it is necessary to go out of the house [people] must be prepared, as am I, to deal with the unpleasant personal habits of others. That is what ‘public’ means.” - _Fran Lebowitz_. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/27 "2013-12-07T10:51:12Z")
And if you can’t take the previous poster’s word for it about a Christmas song, whose can you take? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boulter_s_Canary)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/28 "2013-12-07T15:59:29Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I think it was last Holiday Season that I started a thread that many, many (mostly European) people think this is a happy, festive and hopeful Christmas song. These people are, of course, crazy. No offense Europe. I’m European and I don’t think it is jolly and festive. It _is_ sentimental, though. That horrible booze-fuelled Celtic sentimentality that staggers up to you. throws its arms around your neck, slurs “Y’re me bes’ friend you 're. I rilly, rilly lurve you” and then throws up all over your shoes. I bloody **HATE** it.:mad: ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/29 "2013-12-08T02:47:01Z")
> [@Slade](#): > > There’s also the danger that you’re patronising your gay colleagues here. Why not actually ask one or two of them if they’d find your band’s use of the word “faggot” unacceptable in this song rather than automatically assuming so on their behalf? You might find their attitude is rather more robust than you imagine. > > I think the reason so many people here find your intention to vandalise this particular song so objectionable is because it spectacularly misses the point of everything The Pogues and Shane MacGowan’s songwriting stand for. The Pogues were all about acknowledging the sometimes ugly realities of our flawed world, but managing to find a fierce joy in that world anyway. The literary equivalent of what you’re proposing here would be having Walt Disney adapt a Charles Bukowski novel, and I hope that helps you see how misguided it is. > > Singing the song intact would not mean you’re endorsing the use of the word “faggot” as an insult, merely that you’re acknowledging that’s the kind of word a drunken, angry, working class character like the woman in the song might throw around at moments of stress. Prissily tidying up her language rips the heart from MacGowan’s honest depiction of that character. She’s as likely to reach for the word “braggart” in this situation as I am to start spouting Latin in casual conversation. Making your bowdlerisation rhyme (however awkwardly) is not the only issue here. > > As you’ll gather, I’m very uneasy about attempts to air-brush any art (high or low) before daring to expose it to the public. In support of this view, I would cite the following: > > “No-one has the right not to be offended.” - _John Cleese_. > > “Being offended is the natural consequence of leaving one’s home. […] When it is necessary to go out of the house [people] must be prepared, as am I, to deal with the unpleasant personal habits of others. That is what ‘public’ means.” - _Fran Lebowitz_. Thanks, **Slade** , you said it better than I could have. I mean I get that it’s just an office Christmas party, so really do what you want to do. It’s not like you’re releasing an album or anything. Still it really fucks up the song to change it like that. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/30 "2013-12-08T20:37:07Z")
> [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](#): > > I’m European and I don’t think it is jolly and festive. > > It _is_ sentimental, though. That horrible booze-fuelled Celtic sentimentality that staggers up to you. throws its arms around your neck, slurs “Y’re me bes’ friend you 're. I rilly, rilly lurve you” and then throws up all over your shoes. > > I bloody **HATE** it.:mad: What accent is that person meant to be talking in? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/31 "2013-12-08T20:56:39Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > What accent is that person meant to be talking in? Drunkard. ---
**Author:** ![Barking\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Barking\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Dog)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/32 "2013-12-08T22:46:37Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Is slut not kinda offensive too? Slut is a rude word, not nice but acceptable in a certain situation. Somewhere on or abouts the level of acceptability as fuck or shit. Faggot is, like nigger, an outright slur. Just pure meanness and unacceptable at all times. Except for this one. I guess because it’s art? Anyway, I’m with the folks that say that sing it, then sing the whole thing and let the little old ladies faint. Otherwise pick a new song. I’m sure the gay fellas in your office are reasonable folks and won’t take offense at a song. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/33 "2013-12-08T23:05:06Z")
> [@Barking\_Dog](#): > > Faggot is, like nigger, an outright slur. Just pure meanness and unacceptable at all times. [Except when it isn’t](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:faggot#Add_Irish.2FScouse_definition.3F). > [@](#): > > ‘Faggot’ is also a Irish and Scouse word meaning ‘lazy person’. This is the word used in the Irish song ‘Fairytale of New York’ which caused controversy a few years ago due to British radio stations censoring it, believing it was using the American pejorative meaning. PabloDiablo 15:09, 12 August 2009 (UTC) > > I can’t find that sense. There is Irish use of the word as meaning a burdensome, worthless person (as an old woman), but not lazy. [Or…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)) Of course she’s not calling him a meatball. AFAIK, the pejorative term for homosexual was originally pretty-much an American thing. Since The Pogues are Irish, and given the context of the lyric, it seems clear that she’s calling the man an old woman. ---
**Author:** ![Barking\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Barking\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Dog)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/34 "2013-12-08T23:46:25Z")
I was talking about in the american sense. I know it has other meanings across the drink. Cigarette, bundle of sticks, etc. Just trying to clear up for our european friends just how offensive americans find the word in its pejorative. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/35 "2013-12-08T23:56:59Z")
> [@Barking\_Dog](#): > > Just trying to clear up for our european friends just how offensive americans find the word in its pejorative. Ah, I see. Still, someone said upthread that no one has the right to not be offended. IMO this is doubly so when the offence taken is due to the takers own ignorance. I recall a 1999 controversy when someone used the word ‘niggardly’ in reference to a budget, and someone took it as a racial slur. I was once kicked off of a message board because I mentioned I liked faggots & peas at the pub I like to frequent. Hell, I’ve been admonished in conversations because I used a word someone didn’t know! So I say let the lyric stand as written. If someone is offended, use it as a teaching moment. ---
**Author:** ![Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boulter_s_Canary)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/36 "2013-12-09T03:50:06Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Except when it isn’t](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:faggot#Add_Irish.2FScouse_definition.3F). > > [Or…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)) > > Of course she’s not calling him a meatball. AFAIK, the pejorative term for homosexual was originally pretty-much an American thing. Since The Pogues are Irish, and given the context of the lyric, it seems clear that she’s calling the man an old woman. I’m English from south London and ‘faggot’ in my neck of the woods certainly didn’t mean homosexual when I was growing up (60s). Not that I’m sure what it _did_ mean - it was just a mildly pejorative term, like ‘wazzock’ On the other hand, the song takes place in the US, so isn’t the word meant to be used in the American sense? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/37 "2013-12-09T09:05:14Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Except when it isn’t](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:faggot#Add_Irish.2FScouse_definition.3F). > > [Or…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)) > > Of course she’s not calling him a meatball. AFAIK, the pejorative term for homosexual was originally pretty-much an American thing. Since The Pogues are Irish, and given the context of the lyric, it seems clear that she’s calling the man an old woman. In Ireland, I’ve never known faggot to be used as anything but a derogatory term for a homosexual. In the context of the song, I always read it as the female character trying to get a rise out of the male character while arguing. She doesn’t literally think he’s gay but she is insulting him by calling him gay. I’m not Shane McGowan though so perhaps he had something else in mind. This thread reminds me of a Hurricane Katrina benefit where someone sang “Louisiana, 1927”, they changed the word cracker to farmer. Speaking of Randy Newman songs, I’m not sure if anyone other than Randy would get away with singing that song in polite company. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/38 "2013-12-09T10:48:33Z")
While we’re editing lyrics, surely the phrase “You’re an old slut on junk” is offensive to sexually voracious women of more mature years who have substance issues. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515/39 "2013-12-10T09:35:38Z")
In my previous post the last sentence refers to the song “Rednecks”. Oops. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fairytale-of-new-york-the-pogues-need-a-new-lyric/675515.md?page=1)