# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")
Secularist blogger Avijit Roy [was killed in Bangladesh](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31656222) by hardline Islamists. Yet another example of how the Islamic world is struggling to accept the inevitability of secularism. To their credit, many Bangladeshis immediately took to the streets to protest the killing. This is evidence of a major culture clash taking place in the Muslim world. The liberal secularists are tired of standards being dictated by religion and an increasing number of religious extremists want religion to dominate everything. I talk often of how Muslims need to voice their anger at the hardliners who are destroying the image of their religion abroad. Avijit Roy was one of the precious few with the courage to do so. How many more brave souls will face the cold steel of Islam’s Machete before the shallow tolerance of criticism is allowed? ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/2 "2015-02-28T07:00:53Z")
> **[American atheist blogger hacked to death in Bangladesh](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/27/american-atheist-blogger-hacked-to-death-in-bangladesh)** > > Protests in Dhaka after Avijit Roy, whose blog championed liberal secular writing in the Muslim-majority nation, was attacked along with his wife He married a Muslim and she was attacked as well. So this was killing two birds with one stone situation for the Islamists. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/3 "2015-02-28T07:02:45Z")
Extremely graphic images - [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-1L1kpUYAAy4nW.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-1L1kpUYAAy4nW.jpg) [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-1Ls5uUUAAbnpE.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-1Ls5uUUAAbnpE.jpg) [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-1L5YbUEAA01AM.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-1L5YbUEAA01AM.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/4 "2015-02-28T07:03:57Z")
Congratulatory messages on social media- [http://i60.tinypic.com/2zyd3ic.jpg](http://i60.tinypic.com/2zyd3ic.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/5 "2015-02-28T09:42:32Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Yet another example of how the Islamic world is struggling to accept the inevitability of secularism. Sigh. Secularism isn’t inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/6 "2015-02-28T11:51:16Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Secularist blogger Avijit Roy [was killed in Bangladesh](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31656222) by hardline Islamists. > > Yet another example of how the Islamic world is struggling to accept the inevitability of secularism. This is a comment that is yet another example of a commentator who knows nothing of the history of secularism in the islamic world and makes comments completely without worth. I do not care if there is an inevitably about secular systems or not, as I think the statement makes no sense without definition, but it shows gross ignorance of what the secular history of the Islamic world is since the colonial period and makes grossly incorrect assumptions about what kind of systems the majority of muslims have actually experienced- which as rule are secular and not religious in basis. In the Bangladesh like most of the islamic world the actual systems in place since the end of the colonial rule, itself usually ‘secular’ in a sense, are secular and that the “secular rule” experienced is at a base part of the problem. Too often the secular rule experienced is one that is characterised by gross corruptoin, by dictatorship (backed by the outsiders, whether the Soviets or the Westerners - especially Americans). Comments like this are completely divorced from any political reality of the history and make the gross assumptoins that somehow the Muslims in majority have lived in systems like the saudi system. Much of the islamist reaction is driven by disgust with the gross failures of the secular systems experienced, in the areas of political governance, of economic governance and the general devleopment - and as reaction to particularly large Western support to the “secular” dictators who play to the blind and ignorant prejudices like those of this OP. I do not personally support the islamist reaction, they are wrong, but the simple minded ignorant idea that somehow muslims are blindly culturally revolting against secularism is so completely wrong as to make on laugh in hysteria at the ignorance. > [@](#): > > This is evidence of a major culture clash taking place in the Muslim world. No, it is evidence of the failure of the dictatorship based secularism supported in the past by both the Soviets and the West. to avoid the confusion and the doubt I do not say created by, but indeed supported by blindly often. > [@](#): > > The liberal secularists are tired of standards being dictated by religion and an increasing number of religious extremists want religion to dominate everything. Complete ignorance stupidity that knows nothing of the history of the islamic world in the past 70 years. > [@](#): > > I talk often of how Muslims need to voice their anger at the hardliners who are destroying the image of their religion abroad. Avijit Roy was one of the precious few with the courage to do so. this is complete nonsense and shows you are only fishing for examples to support a prejudice. Since I doubt you speak any language but your English and certainly I doubt you know any of the major non western colonial languages of the islamic world, I do not see what position someone like you has to make statements like ‘one of the preciious few.’ > [@](#): > > How many more brave souls will face the cold steel of Islam’s Machete before the shallow tolerance of criticism is allowed? The emphasis added. It is nice to see the real prejudice come through, and why people like myself who are secular have no trust in these kinds of calls, and why I despise them. I see where they come from and they are not supporting secular people, they are exploiting as a legitimisation of hatreds and bigotries. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/7 "2015-02-28T13:55:05Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Sigh. > > Secularism isn’t inevitable. Secularism or death. Those are the options, and extremist Muslims can only pick for themselves individually, plus maybe a few other people. As societies, the Islamic cultures have no choice but secularism. They haven’t the money/power/influence to change the trend. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/8 "2015-02-28T14:06:26Z")
Tolerance and secularism are not quite the same thing. Stalinists seeking to crush the Russian Orthodox church were secular as all git-out. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/9 "2015-02-28T14:07:09Z")
Oh excellent news, of course this is the system existing for almost all muslims for the past 50 years at least. It is also so good that white-man’s-burden is still existing and that the Islamic world’s choices are made by the persons outside of it and that actual democratic thought has no place, only fearful reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/10 "2015-02-28T14:14:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Tolerance and secularism are not quite the same thing. Stalinists seeking to crush the Russian Orthodox church were secular as all git-out. This is correct. The actual challenges is not that of “secular” systems against theocratic or other fantasy analysis that have no real understanding of the actual history - it is about the acceptation of the political system approach that is not the winner-take-all. And this is a problem of both the secularists and the islamists. It is a completely different problem from secular against non secular and it is partly a heritage of the post colonial period of authoritarianisms and the colonial rule which was almost always authoritarian of course. What is needed is more of the experience of integration of the political tendancies, like we have seen in the tunisian compromise. It is not “islamic acceptation” of secular government, it is the building of the acceptation of a compromise based political process. This is truly lacking. But I can look to the history of the democratic system like in the French case - which the evolution from absolutist (secular or catholic or royalist, usually the final two allied) to compromise took all of the 19th century. It is not an islamic world problem it is a problem of building a new political culture, and you can see it in many places. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/11 "2015-02-28T14:22:21Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Yet another example of how the Islamic world is struggling to accept the inevitability of secularism… > > …This is evidence of a major culture clash taking place in the Muslim world. The liberal secularists are tired of standards being dictated by religion and an increasing number of religious extremists want religion to dominate everything. If the number of religious extremists is indeed increasing, that would tend to suggest secularism is not in fact inevitable, would it not? I mean, I would hope it is, but… > [@](#): > > I talk often of how Muslims need to voice their anger at the hardliners who are destroying the image of their religion abroad. Avijit Roy was one of the precious few with the courage to do so. Actually, not just muslims but anyone who objects to religious totalitarianism. But please be honest here, had you ever even heard of this guy before you happened to see the BBC article you linked to? I mean fair enough if so, but based on what I’ve seen of your output so far, I’m having a hard time believing you’re spending your time hanging out on Bangladeshi blogs. Which in this case, is in the local language. > [@](#): > > How many more brave souls will face the cold steel of Islam’s Machete before the shallow tolerance of criticism is allowed? I’m sorry, it’s a serious issue, but this reads like a parody of a blurb for a Danny Trejo action movie. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/12 "2015-02-28T15:35:23Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I’m sorry, it’s a serious issue, but this reads like a parody of a blurb for a Danny Trejo action movie. Mohammad don’t text. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/13 "2015-02-28T15:39:58Z")
Bangla (or Bengali) is the local language, and the blogger was a 2nd generation bangladeshi free thinker, his father being famous ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/14 "2015-02-28T17:01:20Z")
1. There was already a BBQ Pit thread about this [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=750455) 2. Post #2 reported for inappropriate content. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/15 "2015-02-28T17:29:13Z")
If this is not to be ignored, then it is necessary to note that it is quite distorting to imply the blogger was an unconnected American married to a Muslim, when in fact he was a Bangledeshi born person - of Muslim heritage - who became an American citizen and is the son of a well known Bangladesh secularist activist. Since the OP is from the region, this is hard to consider as an accident and seems deliberate and inflamatory (like some past references to “pakis”). ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/16 "2015-02-28T17:30:46Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > [American atheist blogger hacked to death in Bangladesh | Bangladesh | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/27/american-atheist-blogger-hacked-to-death-in-bangladesh) > He married a Muslim and she was attacked as well. So this was killing two birds with one stone situation for the Islamists. That’s it! I demand some sensible action! Something like holding Islam in general responsible for this!! ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/17 "2015-02-28T17:42:54Z")
Why was there such heavy breathing in the first few posts? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/18 "2015-02-28T17:49:43Z")
How do you reconcile this: > [@Stringbean](#): > > I talk often of how Muslims need to voice their anger at the hardliners who are destroying the image of their religion abroad. Avijit Roy was one of the precious few with the courage to do so. with this? > [@Stringbean](#): > > To their credit, many Bangladeshis immediately took to the streets to protest the killing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/19 "2015-02-28T17:59:41Z")
[Moderating] **truthseeker** , when linking to images of graphic violence, nudity, or other NSFW imagery, we ask that posters observe the “two-click” rule, meaning that it takes two separate mouse clicks to see the material in question. I’ve edited one of your posts to put a spoiler box around your links to bring the post into compliance with board rules. In the future, please do the same thing. Lastly, I’m merging this thread with the existing Pit thread on this subject. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/20 "2015-02-28T20:51:25Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > How do you reconcile this: > > with this? Anger at brutal death is easy. The hard work of rooting out the violent intolerant sectors of your society is the heavy lifting that the Muslim world seems lax to initiate. For example, the poster in this thread who likes to call me an ignorant stupid mean-face has expended all of his or her energy blaming this on colonial white imperialism, as though this were a century ago. Islam is scared to look itself in the mirror because it sees Danny Trejo lurking in the back. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=2)