# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/221 "2015-04-13T01:59:29Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > This is true. But what is your contribution when Garry Trudeau falsely claims that Charlie Hebdo cartoons designed to advocate for ordinary Muslims, against both European Nazis and Muslim extremist leaders, are “Islamophobic” and should be prosecuted as “hate speech”? I think that if free speech means anything, he has every right to say that, and if you’re the free speech advocate you claim to be, you’d believe that too. > [@](#): > > Which group are you in, exactly? The group that supports both Charlie Hebdo’s right to say what they said, and Garry Trudeau’s right to say what he said. Which group are _you_ in? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/222 "2015-04-13T02:31:28Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > I think that if free speech means anything, he has every right to say that, and if you’re the free speech advocate you claim to be, you’d believe that too. …just an aside, are you the A’isha from the former JREF forums? Because if you are, then welcome to the dope, its awesome to have you here. 🙂 And if you aren’t, then welcome to the dope, its still awesome to have you here! ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/223 "2015-04-13T02:49:41Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Do you honestly think this is helping anyone? That this is helping _solve_ some problem? That this “ZOMG, look more Muslim violence! What do you think about that, you Muslim-loving Muslim lovers!” is actually accomplishing anything other than making you look like some kind of obsessed, hateful jackass? Well, it certainly makes the Islamophobe-shriekers look stupid that these atrocities are occurring on a daily basis. They attempt to deflect by name-calling and _we’re_ supposed to be the jackasses. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/224 "2015-04-13T03:07:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …just an aside, are you the A’isha from the former JREF forums? Because if you are, then welcome to the dope, its awesome to have you here. 🙂 Yes, I am. 🙂 And thank you! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/225 "2015-04-13T04:20:22Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Well, it certainly makes the Islamophobe-shriekers Who’s that, precisely? > [@](#): > > look stupid that these atrocities are occurring on a daily basis. How so, precisely? > [@](#): > > They Who, precisely? > [@](#): > > attempt to deflect by name-calling How’s that work, precisely? > [@](#): > > and _we’re_ Who’s “we,” precisely? > [@](#): > > supposed to be the jackasses. Nope. You’re not _supposed_ to be. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/226 "2015-04-13T07:39:57Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > The group that supports both Charlie Hebdo’s right to say what they said, and Garry Trudeau’s right to say what he said. So, opposed to the multiple people in this thread supporting “hate speech” laws (i.e. those who do not support Charlie Hebdo’s rights). Good. Of course, no one disputes Garry Trudeau’s right to say what he said. But I will ask you to disagree with it – both the discredited left-wing meme that CH was racist, and the call for “hate speech” regulation. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/227 "2015-04-13T08:15:14Z")
You fool no one except your comarade hater bigot. Of course it is clear that any supposed concern is only about your hatreds and the extreme ideology shared. Charlie Hebdo, a very hard Left magazine was and is under the French law which has nothing do with your laws - and already has the bans on speech you pretend to be against (the most fundamental passed by the French governments on the right and not the left). It is a mirage of lies and distortions used to justify your own sad myopic agendas. The only reason it is your cause celebre is the excuse it gives for your pretensions your bigotry and hatred of others is supported. As a secular living here I am 1 000 000 times more in danger from the takfiri, but I am not mistaken by your false concerns, you are the people who send people to the death in the end as well. Mirrors images. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/228 "2015-04-13T08:22:16Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Well, it certainly makes the Islamophobe-shriekers look stupid that these atrocities are occurring on a daily basis. They attempt to deflect by name-calling and _we’re_ supposed to be the jackasses. What makes you look stupid except to your fellow haters is the idea that running around looking for every negative thing you can connect to a Muslim (and allying yourself with posters who use the barely disguised hate speech of the hinduvata supramacists) says that you are anything but what you are labeled. To all others it is clear. But it is also clear in the other areas you post, that you have now the nickname shriekbean. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/229 "2015-04-13T15:53:19Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > So, opposed to the multiple people in this thread supporting “hate speech” laws (i.e. those who do not support Charlie Hebdo’s rights). The hate speech laws that exist in France, but not in the US? > [@](#): > > Of course, no one disputes Garry Trudeau’s right to say what he said. But I will ask you to disagree with it – both the discredited left-wing meme that CH was racist, and the call for “hate speech” regulation. Can you quote, specifically, where Garry Trudeau called Charlie Hebdo racist or called for hate speech regulation? ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/230 "2015-04-13T21:21:50Z")
Is there some reason you are repeating the fact that the incident in which Muslims killed people for satirizing Muslim leaders in France happened in France, rather than answering the question about whether “hate speech” laws should exist, in France or anywhere else? ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/231 "2015-04-13T21:26:30Z")
Tolerance advocates “punch up” at more Islamophobes: [Thailand Attacks: Police Suspect Muslim Separatists Of Killing 6 In Far South](http://www.ibtimes.com/thailand-attacks-police-suspect-muslim-separatists-killing-6-far-south-1878996) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/232 "2015-04-13T21:46:54Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Of course, no one disputes Garry Trudeau’s right to say what he said. But I will ask you to disagree with it – both the discredited left-wing meme that CH was racist, and the call for “hate speech” regulation. Discredited by whom, exactly ? Because the latter-day CH wasn’t \*racist \*per se… but it \*\*was \*\*hella islamophobic. In words and 'toons both. Indisputably. I must have said this before, but : while CH was a rather hard-left publication in most respects and as such everything about it was reviled by the far-right ; the selfsame far-right websites (and sometimes even newspapers) would nevertheless regularly copy/paste CH’s (relatively) recent anti-Islam cartoons. Because in _that_ specific respect, they were eminently compatible. Kind of like Stalin and Hitler would find a workable compromise on the specific subject of Poland, ya dig ? ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/233 "2015-04-13T21:50:36Z")
CH’s position was clearly very empathetic to ordinary Muslims. They were making fun of extremist leaders and ideas in the French anti-clerical tradition. The only people who don’t understand this are those who didn’t learn the most basic facts about French culture before making judgments about cartoons whose captions they couldn’t even read. There was a huge incentive to do this among the English-speaking left, because “those racists deserved it anyway” was an extremely tempting way to resolve the cognitive dissonance caused by a clear example of peaceful speech being responded to by overwhelming Islamist violence in a Western country – the thing you are constantly claiming doesn’t happen. Falling over yourself to announce that “French Nazis willfully misinterpreted the cartoons in the same way I did” doesn’t do any favors for your intellectual bona fides. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/234 "2015-04-13T21:52:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I must have said this before, but : while CH was a rather hard-left publication in most respects and as such everything about it was reviled by the far-right ; the selfsame far-right websites (and sometimes even newspapers) would nevertheless regularly copy/paste CH’s (relatively) recent anti-Islam cartoons. Because in _that_ specific respect, they were eminently compatible. Kind of like Stalin and Hitler would find a workable compromise on the specific subject of Poland, ya dig ? No, I don’t. There’s no compromise involved in someone taking and using someone else’s cartoons. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/235 "2015-04-13T22:08:23Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > CH’s position was clearly very empathetic to ordinary Muslims. They were making fun of extremist leaders and ideas in the French anti-clerical tradition. The only people who don’t understand this are those who didn’t learn the most basic facts about French culture before making judgments about cartoons whose captions they couldn’t even read. Fucko, I’m French. And I’ve been reading Charlie since the mid 80s. So, yanno. Why don’t you piss off, eh ? I stand by what I said. Charlie’s been a few things over the decades. In the late years, it had become (in large but not exclusive part) a shitty, basely xenophobic rag. > [@](#): > > There was a huge incentive to do this among the English-speaking left, because “those racists deserved it anyway” was an extremely tempting way to resolve the cognitive dissonance caused by a clear example of peaceful speech being responded to by overwhelming Islamist violence in a Western country – the thing you are constantly claiming doesn’t happen. You do realize that one can hold both opinions, that is “their speech was complete shit” and “their speech didn’t warrant getting shot”, all together, right ? There’s no contradiction there. I’ll go again : I assert that late year Charlie was complete, thoroughly islamophobic (and tentatively, debatably racist) shit with no redeeming value whatsoever on that specific topic. It was not “peaceful speech” by any stretch of the imagination. I assert that Charlie’s shitty cartoons didn’t warrant AK bullets. I get to do both, see ? I just did ! \o/ > [@](#): > > Falling over yourself to announce that “French Nazis willfully misinterpreted the cartoons in the same way I did” doesn’t do any favors for your intellectual bona fides. Fuck your mother in the ass too, while we’re at it ? [QUOTE=Pedro] No, I don’t. There’s no compromise involved in someone taking and using someone else’s cartoons. [/QUOTE] You’re missing my point. The idea was that two political systems, otherwise opposed in everything from stem to leaf, would nevertheless coincidentally reach the same conclusions regarding a peripheral topic, both coming from completely different; antithetical; incompatible lines of reasoning. For one side it was a straight and narrow path to that conclusion ; for the other it took a lot of work. This is not an indication that Charlie compromised itself. It’s an indication that Charlie fucked its line of thought somewhere along the way. And to be honest, I’m not even convinced it was sincere of “Charlie” - I’m reasonably convinced Charb was a punctual islamophobic cunt who did a lot to foster that editorial line in the paper, I’m not so convinced the majority of the folks who went in that direction (again, both in articles and drawings) were as militant. Many old collaborators seem to have just gone with the flow. Which is reprehensible too, but, yanno, maybe not as much ? I liked some of these guys, once upon a time… ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/236 "2015-04-13T22:15:36Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Is there some reason you are repeating the fact that the incident in which Muslims killed people for satirizing Muslim leaders in France happened in France, rather than answering the question about whether “hate speech” laws should exist, in France or anywhere else? Then we should be repeating the fact middle aged white Americans murder muslim families in cold blood. it is a fact of the same quality. and they torture innocent people to death in secret prisons. Another fact of the same qulity. Of course it was two extremists, not “muslims” who killed people and a muslim police officer died in the line of his duty killed by these two extremists. That France has had laws that you americans call hate speech on its law code for many decades, and even back to the 3rd republic, it is of no matter, it is empty politics, ideological posturing by somehow who si bound up in his local games of hatred and ideology. > [@Haberdash](#): > > CH’s position was clearly very empathetic to ordinary Muslims. … It is rich, you tell a French what the CH position was. I am sure Kobal needs to hear this from someone who has learned about the CH and its politics from the American extreme right blogs and the Fox news that was telling us about the mythical no go zones. But what do we expect from the bigot who posts random news to draw together his narrative, in the same fashion of the old antisemites of the europe. Maybe we should start psoting about the Budhdhist violence in the Myanmar against the religious minorities or the[hinduvata extremist violence](http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/india-s-christian-community-under-attack-by-hindu-zealots-1.2149152) and you can feel more martyered and you can talk then about christian genociding. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/237 "2015-04-13T22:15:40Z")
Err, that would be mid-90s, not mid-80s. I did not read Charlie in the crib. I wish I had, but you can’t choose your parents, amirite ? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/238 "2015-04-13T22:20:50Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You do realize that one can hold both opinions, that is “their speech was complete shit” and “their speech didn’t warrant getting shot”, all together, right ? There’s no contradiction there. Metaphysically, yes. While their bodies are still cooling, no. “They were racists” in response to them _getting murdered_ is the same thing as “she was wearing a short skirt” in response to a rape – its truth in a vacuum is irrelevant to the social context in which it is uttered which makes it pure apologism. > [@Ramira](#): > > Then we should be repeating the fact middle aged white Americans murder muslim families in cold blood. Yes, that was a terrible thing when it happened once. If it happened multiple times every day like Islamists murdering people does, it might compare. > [@](#): > > Of course it was two extremists, not “muslims” who killed people :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > and a muslim police officer died in the line of his duty killed by these two extremists. Indeed – a traitor to your vision of Islam, I’m sure. > [@](#): > > That France has had laws that you americans call hate speech on its law code for many decades, and even back to the 3rd republic, it is of no matter, it is empty politics, ideological posturing by somehow who si bound up in his local games of hatred and ideology. Is there an English version of this post, or at least a French one? > [@](#): > > It is rich, you tell a French what the CH position was. I will tell a leftist, Islamist violence-apologizing, anti-freedom agent of darkness whatever I feel he needs to be educated about. > [@](#): > > hinduvata extremist violence I actually am complaining about the backwardness of Hinduism and Buddhism in another thread right now. The Hindu extremist movement is called “Hindutva” not “Hinduvata,” by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/239 "2015-04-13T22:26:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Fucko, I’m French. Don’t worry, he can soon tell us with the citations to the Fox News about how the Muslim Paris City is so dangerous there are the no go areas. And from the Fox news commentariat, he can tell you about how it is the Islamicphile Left that made the Loi du 29 juillet 1881 punish racist diffamations. Or how it was the _Muslims_ how pushed the Loi Gayssot… We can learn a lot from the Americans who read the right wing blogs and watch the Fox news. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/240 "2015-04-13T22:28:00Z")
For a bunch of people who claim not to be American, you sure do seem to know a lot more about what an American cable station airs than I do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=13)