# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/401 "2015-04-24T22:11:51Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > A woman who was an activist for human rights in Pakistan has been shot to death. Probably Islamophobes. > > [Director T2F Sabeen Mahmud shot dead in Karachi - Pakistan - DAWN.COM](http://www.dawn.com/news/1177956/director-t2f-sabeen-mahmud-shot-dead-in-karachi) Another strong piece evidence in support of my OP. The struggle among Muslim nations to accept secularism and Western principles regarding free speech is tragic and is unfolding before our eyes. It is a necessary growing pain; that some here want to dismiss it as “commonplace, nothing to see here” is all the more tragic. These are the people standing up for _our_ values. They are being violently murdered for expressing criticism and inviting open dialogue. It is utterly stunning that liberals on this board cannot muster the courage to call out what is happening in the Muslim world. The machete is striking at the heart of what we value most. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/402 "2015-04-24T22:24:47Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Another strong piece evidence in support of my OP. The struggle among Muslim nations to accept secularism and Western principles regarding free speech is tragic and is unfolding before our eyes. It is a necessary growing pain; that some here want to dismiss it as “commonplace, nothing to see here” is all the more tragic. > > These are the people standing up for _our_ values. They are being violently murdered for expressing criticism and inviting open dialogue. It is utterly stunning that liberals on this board cannot muster the courage to call out what is happening in the Muslim world. The machete is striking at the heart of what we value most. First of all, you and I share very, very few values. Because you’re a bigoted piece of shit, and I’m not. Secondly, liberals are more than happy to condemn violence perpetrated by Islamic radicals. We’re also able to do this, and call out bigoted pieces of shit like yourself and **Haberdash** _at the same time_. I know this is an amazing concept to a person like yourself, who has trouble keeping one idea in his head at a time, let alone two. But for normal functioning adults, I assure you, this ability is quite common. In this thread, we’re more likely to talk about what a bigoted piece of shit you and **Haberdash** are, instead of talking about violent by Islamic radicals, because you and **Haberdash** are actually in this thread and can see what we’re saying. Whereas, to my knowledge, there are no violent Islamic radicals reading this. But on the off-hand chance there _are_ violent Islamic radicals reading this: you guys are jerks, too. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/403 "2015-04-24T22:45:42Z")
Indeed, your right to say such hateful things and I to abstain from violent reprisal makes us much more similar than you would acknowledge. But it’s nice to at least feign that you care about the fallen. After all, she wasn’t given that opportunity. If it takes a racist misogynist to say a few words in favor of the Pakistani caretaker of our values, that’s a sad testament to our state of affairs. One wonders, what exactly are the “good guys” concerned with… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/404 "2015-04-24T23:01:34Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > But it’s nice to at least feign that you care about the fallen. After all, she wasn’t given that opportunity. If it takes a racist misogynist to say a few words in favor of the Pakistani caretaker of our values, that’s a sad testament to our state of affairs. One wonders, what exactly are the “good guys” concerned with… I didn’t call you a racist or a misogynist. But if you want to claim those terms for yourself, far be it from me to stop you. And free speech isn’t our only value. Among our other values are religious freedom and a support for a pluralistic society. While the death of the woman is tragic, and a blow against the concept of freedom of speech for Pakistan, it’s not really a threat to freedom of speech here in the West. On the other hand, knuckle dragging barbarians like you and **Haberdash** are very much a threat to our _other_ values. So if you want to know what the “good guys” are concerned with, well, _one_ of our concerns is making sure people like you don’t destroy the things that make this country great. And speaking of “feigning,” let’s not pretend you actually give a shit about this woman in any way, except as a club to beat on people you don’t like. Nobody here is fooled by your crocodile tears. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/405 "2015-04-24T23:32:25Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > … The machete is striking at the heart of what we value most. Guns? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/406 "2015-04-24T23:49:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Among our other values are religious freedom and a support for a pluralistic society. Precisely the values championed by Ms. Mahmud: > [@Dawn article](#): > > T2F, described as a community space for open dialogue, was Sabeen’s brainchild. In an interview with Aurora, she referred to it as “an inclusive space where different kinds of people can be comfortable.” That you are more outraged at my outrage than the violent reprisal of a woman who sacrificed her life in the ambition of bringing a “pluralistic society” to Pakistan speaks volumes. Your priorities are backward. You think I’m going to destroy the United States by supporting those who champion the very things that, in your words, make this country great. You may think I don’t give a flying fuck about Sabeen Mahmud or Avijit Roy, but I truly admire the courage it took them to voice criticism of the intolerant, oppressive societies they lived in. They are martyrs for a cause that I, and _you_, should care about, whether that affects us in the United States or not. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/407 "2015-04-25T00:27:03Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Precisely the values championed by Ms. Mahmud: And under constant attack by parasites such as yourself. > [@](#): > > That you are more outraged at my outrage than the violent reprisal of a woman who sacrificed her life in the ambition of bringing a “pluralistic society” to Pakistan speaks volumes. About your reading comprehension, perhaps. > [@](#): > > You may think I don’t give a flying fuck about Sabeen Mahmud or Avijit Roy, but I truly admire the courage it took them to voice criticism of the intolerant, oppressive societies they lived in. They are martyrs for a cause that I, and _you_, should care about, whether that affects us in the United States or not. Bullshit, you fucking liar. The only time you’re able to make distinctions between Muslims is when one of them is dead, and you can use them as a tool to attack the rest of the Muslims in the world. That’s your only “cause,” you grubby little bigot. You don’t have any aspirations more noble than sticking it to people who aren’t like you, and you don’t have the basic human decency to leave the dead alone when you do it. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/408 "2015-04-25T11:32:32Z")
What happens to gay Muslims? They get driven to suicide by their parents. Another victory over the Islamophobes telling people to live in 2015. > **[130 mile charity walk in memory of gay doctor | ITV News](https://www.itv.com/news/central/2015-04-25/fiance-to-complete-130-mile-work-in-memory-of-gay-partner-who-took-his-own-life-after-coming-out)** > > A man whose partner killed himself after coming out to his mother, is completing a 130 mile charity walk from London to Birmingham today. | ITV News Central ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/409 "2015-04-25T12:15:30Z")
I think a better strategy for posters arguing against Stringbean and Haberdash would be to cite Qur’anic verses which support free speech and oppose homophobia/misogyny. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/410 "2015-04-25T14:19:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But on the off-hand chance there _are_ violent Islamic radicals reading this: you guys are jerks, too. Silence, infid… I mean, yes, agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/411 "2015-04-25T15:33:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Investigators say that an Iranian activist was gunned down by Jordanian immigrants in 2012 because they believed she helped convert their Muslim daughter to Christianity, reports CBS affiliate KHOU. > > Gelareh Bagherzadeh, a 30-year-old researcher at MD Anderson, was shot to death outside her parents home in the Galleria area. > **[3 family members charged in Texas "honor killing" of Iranian activist](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/3-family-members-charged-in-texas-honor-killing-of-iranian-activist/)** > > Investigators say Ali Irsan killed his daughter's friend and his son-in-law because he was angry his daughter married a Christian ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/412 "2015-04-25T15:59:43Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > I think a better strategy for posters arguing against Stringbean and Haberdash would be to cite Qur’anic verses which support free speech and oppose homophobia/misogyny. Believe it or not there are gay Muslim groups who do cite Quranic verses and Hadiths which show tolerance for gay people. I generally find them as unpersuasive as the gay Christians and gay Catholics who make similar arguments regarding the Church, but they sincerely believe it. It’s also worth noting that because for the longest time people in the Muslim world didn’t think of gays as an entirely separate category and the idea of gay identity was alien to them(which was largely true in the West up until the late 19th Century) many had vastly different attitudes towards behavior that most of us in the West would consider “gay” and well up until the 1960s or 70s most of the Middle East, particularly Lebanon and Morocco was for practical purposes less homophobic than the West. That’s not to say that being openly gay was a good idea or tolerated, but there was such a strong society wide denial of their existence that gay bars could operate much more openly than they could in the US without being afraid of police raids and so long as one was discrete you could bang boys not the side and no one would care(granted being a bottom was considered vastly, vastly worse than being a top which still persists to this day). In fact, it was very common for many diplomatic personnel from the West to be gay because they could feel safer and not have to worry about hiding the way they had to in the US, Canada, or UK. As my mother, an American woman said, “Being openly gay in the 60s and 70s was much safer in the West than Iran, but being a closeted gay was vastly better in Iran during the same period.” Sadly, this has dramatically changed since the 70s for the worse in most of the Middle East. That said, even today you’ll still see such attitudes persisting. Yes, “gays” are banned from the Turkish army but only if you’re a bottom and while few will admit it I wouldn’t be surprised if more members of the Basij in Iran have engaged in ass play than gay men in the US(many of whom in my experience are scared to death of anal sex). None of what I’ve said is meant as an endorsement of such attitudes obviously or a suggestion that being gay in the West isn’t clear, at this moment, better in the US than most of the Middle East, but it’s vastly more complex than many think and has more to do with history and culture than theology. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/413 "2015-04-25T19:00:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Bullshit, you fucking liar. The only time you’re able to make distinctions between Muslims is when one of them is dead, and you can use them as a tool to attack the rest of the Muslims in the world. That’s your only “cause,” you grubby little bigot. You don’t have any aspirations more noble than sticking it to people who aren’t like you, and you don’t have the basic human decency to leave the dead alone when you do it. And yet, their cold, rotting corpses lay in blithering support of my OP, and you are the one spewing hate. It is not disrespect to honor the cause they gave their lives for. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/414 "2015-04-25T19:12:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Jihadists have been posing as gay men in a bid to trap victims, a report has claimed, as Isis released pictures purporting to show two allegedly homosexual men being embraced by militants before they were brutally stoned to death in public. > **[Isis militants pictured 'hugging' gay men, before brutally stoning them to death](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-militants-embrace-gay-men-before-stoning-them-to-death-in-public-in-syria-10200570.html)** > > Report claims jihadists have posed as gay men to honeytrap victims ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/415 "2015-04-25T20:42:31Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > And yet, their cold, rotting corpses lay in blithering support of my OP, and you are the one spewing hate. > > It is not disrespect to honor the cause they gave their lives for. And yet, you don’t seem to actually care about them and their cause until after they’re dead and you can use their cold corpses to support your bigotry. You certainly haven’t been as vocal about the living ones, such as the many dedicated people worldwide, of all faiths and nationalities, working for groups like [Women Living Under Muslim Laws](http://www.wluml.org/). Then again, considering they [have no love](http://www.wluml.org/news/hirsi-ali-telling-critic-islamophobe) for Islamophobic shits like you and Haberdash, maybe that’s actually not all that surprising. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/416 "2015-04-25T21:02:21Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > What happens to gay Muslims? They get driven to suicide by their parents. Another victory over the Islamophobes telling people to live in 2015. > > [Fiancé to complete 130 mile walk in memory of gay partner who took his own life after coming out | ITV News Central](http://www.itv.com/news/central/2015-04-25/fiance-to-complete-130-mile-work-in-memory-of-gay-partner-who-took-his-own-life-after-coming-out/) [American Muslims are more in favor of same-sex marriage than white American Evangelicals.](http://publicreligion.org/2015/04/attitudes-on-same-sex-marriage-by-religious-affiliation-and-denominational-family/#.VTv-PfDcnIk) But enough about that. Let me tell you about the Blackwell Companion to the Qur’an, edited by Andrew Rippin. While a little bit pricier than my earlier suggestions because of its scholarly focus, this book is nevertheless well worth the money. It contains over thirty essays by a wide range of academic experts on the Qur’an, covering topics ranging from its linguistic structure and how that structure both reflected and influenced the emergence of the Muslim community, to how God is described in it, to contemporary ethical issues. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/417 "2015-04-25T21:17:09Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > [3 family members charged in Texas "honor killing" of Iranian activist - CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/3-family-members-charged-in-texas-honor-killing-of-iranian-activist/) Modernist and Fundamentalist Debates in Islam: A Reader is definitely more of a reader than anything resembling a formal debate between scholars, so don’t expect any kind of point/counterpoint here. Instead, it contains translations of selections from a large variety of Muslim scholars and writers from the 19th to the late 20th centuries, giving a nice range of perspectives of how they approached modernism and Westernization. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/418 "2015-04-25T21:23:36Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > [Isis militants embrace 'gay' men before 'stoning them to death in public' in Syria | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-militants-embrace-gay-men-before-stoning-them-to-death-in-public-in-syria-10200570.html) Aisha Musa’s Hadith as Scripture: Discussions on the Authority of Prophetic Traditions in Islam, as its subtitle indicates, approaches _hadith_ studies from the specific perspective of examining the issue of their authority. The history and development of their use as authoritative sources of jurisprudence is covered, as well as an in-depth study of the historical and modern controversies surrounding both the authority of any given _hadith_, and in using _hadith_ as an authoritative source in the first place instead of just the Qur’an. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/419 "2015-04-26T01:18:44Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Then again, considering they [have no love](http://www.wluml.org/news/hirsi-ali-telling-critic-islamophobe) for Islamophobic shits like you and Haberdash, maybe that’s actually not all that surprising. Unless you can show me where I have advocated “defeating Islam” in all forms, including militarily then that article, which I agree with in sentiment, is useless to use as a form of attack against me. I have stated from the beginning that there is a struggle in the Muslim world to accept growing secularism in their societies. We’ve seen evidence of this in Syria, Tunisia, Bangladesh, and now Pakistan. All cases of secular critics of Islam being killed for espousing their beliefs. Calling me an Islamophobe, bigot, blah blah blah, is your tacit admission that you can’t refute that argument. It is valid and you are forced to call me mean names rather than acknowledge it. Suit yourself. More examples will undoubtedly come forth. You need to come up with more mean names to distract your intellect. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/420 "2015-04-26T01:46:34Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > More examples will undoubtedly come forth. Confirmation bias is a demanding mistress, but I’m sure you’ll soldier on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=22)