# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/581 "2015-05-01T21:39:47Z")
That **Habbsie** rushes to the support of Geert Wilders says all that need be said. ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/582 "2015-05-01T21:43:36Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The U.S. isn’t part of dar-al Islam yet, kid. Is that a fear or a hope? ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/583 "2015-05-01T21:49:03Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That **Habbsie** rushes to the support of Geert Wilders says all that need be said. That, after all the tooth-gnashing, you still can’t tell the difference between supporting someone’s right to free speech and endorsing the entirety of his message. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/584 "2015-05-01T21:52:10Z")
> [@OwnRules](#): > > Is that a fear or a hope? An illumination of the fact that our “moderate Muslim” friend slipped up and revealed that she views the United States of America as a private house owned by Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/585 "2015-05-01T22:04:11Z")
You and reality aren’t on speaking terms, are you. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/586 "2015-05-01T22:08:27Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Meanwhile, Muslims in the U.S. Congress seem to be laying the foundation for criminalizing “Islamophobic” speech: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/04/29/congressmen-keith-ellison-and-andre-carson-call-for-denial-of-visa-to-dutch-legislator-geert-wilders/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/04/29/congressmen-keith-ellison-and-andre-carson-call-for-denial-of-visa-to-dutch-legislator-geert-wilders/) A [short but relevant insight](https://youtu.be/GOpY6ZCshmM) into what Geert Wilders believes and stands for. It’s his response to Charlie Hebdo. He certainly goes too far, advocating an ambiguous “de-Islamization” of Europe, but deserves every right to speak his opinion as do radical Islamists. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/587 "2015-05-01T22:13:55Z")
Frankly, even getting into the particulars of what Wilders does and doesn’t get right is missing the point – we do not have a debate on whether some person agrees with correct political values before choosing to grant them rights. This is the U.S. and people’s rights, yes including the rights of non-citizens to visit, should never be contingent on passing an ideological test. I will happily distance myself from Wilders’s paranoia about immigration in general, with the above caveat that it makes no difference to the issue. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/588 "2015-05-01T22:23:56Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > A [short but relevant insight](https://youtu.be/GOpY6ZCshmM) into what Geert Wilders believes and stands for. It’s his response to Charlie Hebdo. Wilders is such a free speech advocate that he [wants the Qur’an to be banned in his country](http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php/in-english-mainmenu-98/in-the-press-mainmenu-101/77-in-the-press/in-the-press/1117-enough-is-enough-ban-the-koran). > [@](#): > > He certainly goes too far, advocating an ambiguous “de-Islamization” of Europe There’s nothing “ambiguous” about what he intends: ban the Qur’an and the construction of mosques, end any Muslim immigration, and deport the Muslims that live in his country, and [let the elected members of the political party he founded and leads openly proclaim their Nazi allegiance](http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/row-after-four-mps-wear-badges-in-dutch-parliament-featuring-neo-nazi-insignia-1.1542900). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/589 "2015-05-01T22:24:48Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > As the column points out, the stated rationale – that free speech must be limited in cases of “prejudice” or “inciting discrimination” – could apply to anything and is in no way unique to the speech of foreign visa-seekers. Your reading comprehension is letting you down again. Ellison and Carson nowhere claim that “free speech must be limited in cases of ‘prejudice’ or ‘inciting discrimination’”. What they actually [say](http://www.scribd.com/doc/263389175/Ellison-Carson-Letter-Re-Geert-Wilders-4-23) is: > [@](#): > > Freedom of speech, however, is not absolute. It is limited by the legal and moral understanding that speech that causes the incitement of violence or prejudicial action against protected groups is wrong. They are not advocating any new restrictions on free speech: they’re simply pointing out limitations on free speech that are already acknowledged to exist. E.g., you can’t count on being allowed to get up on a podium and yell “Kill the [racial epithets]!”, or walk into a federal building wearing a T-shirt that says “All the Stupid [racial epithets] Should Be Fired and Shipped Back to [foreign locality]”. And arguing that you should be allowed to do such things just because of beloved FreezePeach will generally not be successful. Now, as I said, I don’t happen to agree with Ellison and Carson that Wilders’ actions, loathsome though some of them are, are on a par with that kind of direct aggression to an extent that would justify actually denying him a visa. But it’s clear from what they actually say in their letter that they are not embarking on any sort of super-subtle legislative conspiracy to suddenly destroy the right to free expression as we know it. > [@Haberdash](#): > > When Ellison does unveil a “hate speech” bill, you’ll turn on a dime and claim it’s necessary since all those enlightened European countries have it, and why would we want to defend the free speech of racists anyway, fire in a crowded theater, yadda yadda. You and that strawman of yours really need to get a room. What goes on between the two of you, however passionately absorbing you may find it, has absolutely nothing to do with the reality that the rest of us are living in. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/590 "2015-05-01T22:34:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > E.g., you can’t count on being allowed to get up on a podium and yell “Kill the [racial epithets]!”, or walk into a federal building wearing a T-shirt that says “All the Stupid [racial epithets] Should Be Fired and Shipped Back to [foreign locality]”. You certainly can. You know nothing about free speech as either a moral or legal principle. Prohibited incitements to violence must be specific (“kill the Jew Bernie Epstein” or “kill those Jews over there”, not kill Jews in general) and likely to actually incite imminent lawless action – “kill the Jews” at a mere gathering in front a podium is only prosecutable if someone does, in fact, go kill some Jews right away and it can be shown that the speaker influenced this decision. Brandenberg v. Ohio, et al. > [@](#): > > And arguing that you should be allowed to do such things just because of beloved FreezePeach will generally not be successful. Oh, you’re one of those. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/591 "2015-05-01T22:35:44Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Wilders is such a free speech advocate that he [wants the Qur’an to be banned in his country](http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php/in-english-mainmenu-98/in-the-press-mainmenu-101/77-in-the-press/in-the-press/1117-enough-is-enough-ban-the-koran). > There’s nothing “ambiguous” about what he intends: ban the Qur’an and the construction of mosques, end any Muslim immigration, and deport the Muslims that live in his country, and [let the elected members of the political party he founded and leads openly proclaim their Nazi allegiance](http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/row-after-four-mps-wear-badges-in-dutch-parliament-featuring-neo-nazi-insignia-1.1542900). Given these ideas he has expressed, do you believe he should be denied entry into the US? ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/592 "2015-05-01T22:38:48Z")
It should also be added that there is no room whatsoever for prior restraint in the American legal system – no matter what you think some guy is going to say about Jews or Muslims or whoever, even if you have a copy of his speech in hand and he is going to meet the extremely narrow Brandenburg test, all you can do is hold him accountable after. It is totally and utterly prohibited to prevent speech from taking place based on its content. If Wilders were a U.S. resident, this would be a nonissue, and I wish the same standard were maintained with visas, because the censorship movement is constantly oozing out from whatever space it is given. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/593 "2015-05-01T22:39:48Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Wilders is such a free speech advocate that he [wants the Qur’an to be banned in his country](http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php/in-english-mainmenu-98/in-the-press-mainmenu-101/77-in-the-press/in-the-press/1117-enough-is-enough-ban-the-koran). > > There’s nothing “ambiguous” about what he intends: ban the Qur’an and the construction of mosques, end any Muslim immigration, and deport the Muslims that live in his country, and [let the elected members of the political party he founded and leads openly proclaim their Nazi allegiance](http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/row-after-four-mps-wear-badges-in-dutch-parliament-featuring-neo-nazi-insignia-1.1542900). Why do you think the content of Wilders’s views is relevant to his right to freedom of speech? Hint: There is no answer to this question that does not involve disavowing his right to freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/594 "2015-05-01T22:42:34Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Given these ideas he has expressed, do you believe he should be denied entry into the US? No, but neither am I going to be all that torn up if that hateful sack of Nazi shit gets turned back at the border. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/595 "2015-05-01T22:44:44Z")
In case anyone hasn’t noticed, it’s perfectly legal in the United States to run a chapter of the [Ku Klux Klan](https://www.kkk.com/), [lead a Nazi parade through a Jewish suburb](https://www.aclu.org/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie), [preach in support of ISIS](http://patch.com/michigan/dearborn/feds-go-after-250k-owed-dearborn-cleric-isis-influence), and even [join a political party controlled by a foreign superpower dedicated to the violent overthrow of the U.S. government](http://www.ushistory.org/us/53a.asp). What is it about Geert Wilders’s views in particular that requires ending the best thing about America? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/596 "2015-05-01T22:47:04Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Why do you think the content of Wilders’s views is relevant to his right to freedom of speech? Hint: There is no answer to this question that does not involve disavowing his right to freedom of speech. It’s not. I’m merely observing that he’s a hateful Nazi shit who has more free speech than he himself thinks Muslims deserve. He’s certainly free to express his hateful Nazi views all he wants, just as you and Stringbean are free to support him all you want. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/597 "2015-05-01T22:49:07Z")
Well, that’s kind of the point – he very much is not free to express those views in the U.S. if Muslims in the U.S. Congress are using their office to exclude him based on the content of his views. Conversely, your Muslim pals are free to express their hateful views towards women, children, and non-Muslims all they want. But, in an actual sense, not a theoretical one. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/598 "2015-05-01T22:51:59Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > What is it about Geert Wilders’s views in particular that requires ending the best thing about America? If revoking someone’s visa based on the content of their speech is “ending the best thing about America”, then I regret to inform you that [it was ended long ago](http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060912_john_lennon_politics_deportation). RIP America. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/599 "2015-05-01T22:56:30Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Well, that’s kind of the point – he very much is not free to express those views in the U.S. Meanwhile here in reality, he not only has a website accessible in the US, several books published in the US, and gets quoted often by press in the US, he gave a speech to the Conservative Opportunity Society in Washing DC two days ago. He’s practically _swamped_ in freedom to express his views in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/600 "2015-05-01T22:57:11Z")
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