# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/621 "2015-05-04T04:48:08Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > I don’t believe your mealy-mouthed denials. Not surprising: like I said, you’ve decided what you want to believe and no amount of encountering contrary facts will change your mind. > [@Haberdash](#): > > For all we know, one of the shooters saw the page of people like you explaining why Geert Wilders doesn’t deserve free speech rights More wilfully blind factual errors on your part. Your irrational determination to believe what you want to believe is impervious even to direct and explicit contradiction from people saying that Geert Wilders **does** deserve free speech rights: > [@Kimstu](#): > > Now, as I said, I don’t happen to agree with Ellison and Carson that Wilders’ actions, loathsome though some of them are, are on a par with that kind of direct aggression to an extent that would justify actually denying him a visa > [@A'isha](#): > > I’m merely observing that he’s a hateful Nazi shit who has more free speech than he himself thinks Muslims deserve. He’s certainly free to express his hateful Nazi views all he wants > [@Haberdash](#): > > Every person who values peace and freedom is already an “Islamophobe.” Only the ones who are lining up alongside the radical-Islamist mullahs to insist that there’s no difference between Islamist-extremist violent tyranny and Islam _per se_. You and your Islamophobic ilk are the best allies that the radical-Islamist extremists have, because you stand shoulder to shoulder with them in maintaining that only violent and repressive interpretations of Islam are eligible to be called Islam. > [@Haberdash](#): > > You distancing yourself from the condemnation of Islam and then claiming you aren’t supporting what Muslims do is not sustainable. I don’t support what **Islamist-extremist violent radical Muslims** do. I absolutely **do** support the actions of the many, many non-extremist non-violent Muslims who are teaching school, fixing toilets, cooking dinner, reading the newspaper, and carrying on many other activities while **not** supporting violence or oppression in the name of religion. That position is entirely sustainable, and I intend to go on sustaining it. > [@Haberdash](#): > > In addition to the weeks we have to look forward to of justifications for the attack, I also am not going to be happy about all the people claiming that if only we had a “hate speech” law to shut down this event, none of this ever would have happened. I’m making concrete predictions that I will refer back to when they come to pass later Well, if some people **do** argue that this event should have been shut down in accordance with a “hate speech” law, I will wholeheartedly agree with you that those people are wrong about that. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/622 "2015-05-04T15:02:01Z")
On the one hand, **Haberdash** is clearly and by his/her own admission trolling here, and I hate to give trolls the attention they crave. OTOH, thank for beating your head against that wall, **Kimstu**. It’s heartening to see rationality standing up to hateful trollery. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/623 "2015-05-04T16:13:05Z")
[Muslims Defend Pam Geller’s Right to Hate](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/04/muslims-defend-pam-geller-s-right-to-hate.html) > [@](#): > > Anti-Muslim advocate Pam Geller has the absolute right to draw any cartoon she wants of the Prophet Muhammad. That was not just the response from Muslim-American leaders I spoke to after news broke Sunday night of a shooting outside a Garland, Texas, event that Geller had organized—offering $10,000 for people to draw images of Muhammad—but before that event as well. > > […] > > In fact, in the weeks leading up to her contest, the response by Muslim community has been a mix of ignoring her and comically mocking her. > > Alia Salem, head of the Dallas chapter of the Council on Islamic Relations explained to me by phone Sunday night that she had “passionately urged” Muslims to ignore Geller. Salem said that she’s a strong supporter of freedom of expression and believes that Geller certainly has the right to draw hateful cartoons about any religious figure she so chooses, including the Prophet Muhammad. But she urged Muslim community members to not give Geller “what she wants” and respond or even protest the event. > > In fact, on April 25, Salem posted a plea on Facebook to fellow Muslims in the Dallas/Forth Worth area “to ignore and encourage others to ignore Pamela Geller” and her contest. Salem noted that Geller’s goal is “to incite our community and rile us up and I do not want us to give her the satisfaction or the media attention she thrives on. Without our reaction she has no story at all and no draw for the media which is what keeps her going and allows her to get publicity.” Salem concluded, “Let’s not fall for it. Please.” > > The comments by Muslims (and non-Muslims alike) to this Facebook post applauded Salem with remark like, “completely agree. They’re not worth acknowledging,” “I can’t believe how lame she is,” and “I can’t believe the purposeful hatefulness of this! I’m glad everyone is getting ready to ignore it, they just want a reaction!” > > Salem’s words clearly had an impact. As a local reporter noted, not one protester showed up to the event. And the event itself went on without disruption. (The shooting took place in the parking lot after the event had concluded.) > > […] > > And Muslim-American leaders I spoke with outside of Texas universally defended Geller’s right to draw cartoons. For example, Linda Sarsour, a New York City Muslim community leader, explained to me that Geller can “draw any damn cartoon she wants and I defend her right to do so. I have always fought for her right to be a bigot and I have the right to counter her bigotry with my own speech.” > > I couldn’t agree more. In fact after the terrorist attack against the cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo’s offices in Paris, I appeared on numerous media outlets urging the media to show every cartoon they had drawn of the Prophet Muhammad. The very essence of freedom of expression demands that we defend the broadcasting or publishing of images that we may not like or even find offensive. That is how important freedom of expression to our nation and it is a principle that Muslim-Americans agree with wholeheartedly. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/624 "2015-05-04T16:13:34Z")
Leading dhimmi media outlets are reacting as predicted. The problem with Muslims launching a mass-murder plot against people exercising their free speech rights is – that “conservatives” are relieved the plot was foiled. > **["Good news? Both Muslim savages are dead": Here are the most heinous...](https://www.salon.com/2015/05/04/good_news_both_muslim_savages_are_dead_here_are_the_most_heinous_conservative_reactions_to_the_garland_shooting/)** > > Ben Shapiro doesn't understand why Muslims are offended by Muhammad drawings when we all liked "The Book of Mormon" ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/625 "2015-05-04T16:14:37Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > [Muslims Defend Pam Geller’s Right to Hate](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/04/muslims-defend-pam-geller-s-right-to-hate.html) First off: Don’t shoot! Second: Did you ever consider that “no one even showed up to protest the event, except the two people who had to be shot dead by cops because they tried to murder everyone at the event” sounds really fucking stupid? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/626 "2015-05-04T16:42:59Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Leading dhimmi :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > media outlets are reacting as predicted. The problem with Muslims launching a mass-murder plot against people exercising their free speech rights is – that “conservatives” are relieved the plot was foiled. That’s not what the article says. Apparently every time you use the word “dhimmi”, your reading comprehension actually _worsens._ > [@Haberdash](#): > > First off: Don’t shoot! Why would I shoot you? > [@](#): > > Second: Did you ever consider that “no one even showed up to protest the event, except the two people who had to be shot dead by cops because they tried to murder everyone at the event” sounds really fucking stupid? There are 500,000 Muslims in Texas alone. These two assholes represent 0.0004% of the Texan Muslim population (and .000087% of the US Muslim population). That’s not even a rounding error, it’s _statistical noise._ Why didn’t any of the other 99.9996% of Texas Muslims show up to help these two out, much less even protest outside the event? Why didn’t any of the other 99.999923% of American Muslims? Why did they instead say of the event and its hatemonger organizers “just ignore them, let them do what they want”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/627 "2015-05-04T17:10:27Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > There are 500,000 Muslims in Texas alone. These two assholes represent 0.0004% of the Texan Muslim population (and .000087% of the US Muslim population). That’s not even a rounding error, it’s _statistical noise._ It looks like you are trying to couch a moral argument in the scientific terminology of statistics, but it just sounds like gibberish to anyone who knows what they are talking about. What you wrote doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/628 "2015-05-04T17:11:23Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > What’s the new safe-word for encounters with Muslims? “Pens up, don’t shoot”? > [@Haberdash](#): > > > [@A'isha](#): > > > > Muslims Defend Pam Geller’s Right to Hate […] > > First off: Don’t shoot! :dubious: **Wow.** Although **A’isha** all through this thread has been defending the free-speech rights of Islamophobes and unwaveringly condemning Islamist-extremist violent attempts to silence Islamophobes… …and although we’re all interacting anonymously over the internet anyway so the notion of any actual shooting taking place in this thread is meaningless… … **Haberdash** _thinks it’s okay to pretend he’s scared of **A’isha** shooting him solely because she’s Muslim_. That right there is textbook hatemongering bigotry. **Haberdash** doesn’t give the flimsiest fragment of a rat’s ass what any individual **actually** thinks or says or does. He simply wants any excuse to insult Muslims, any Muslims. And now he’s so hopped up on the vicarious testosterone rush of two Islamist terrorists getting taken out that he’s moved from insulting all Muslims in general to specifically insulting **A’isha**. Even though **A’isha** has never done anything to injure **Haberdash** and has constantly condemned Islamist-terrorist acts, _ **Haberdash** will gladly stoop to mocking her as a terrorist **simply because she’s Muslim** _. _ **WHAT A FESTERING LITTLE PIMPLEDICKED SHIT.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/629 "2015-05-04T17:18:10Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > It looks like you are trying to couch a moral argument in the scientific terminology of statistics, but it just sounds like gibberish to anyone who knows what they are talking about. What you wrote doesn’t make sense. What doesn’t make sense about it? The argument is that the vast majority of Texas Muslims didn’t even think this event was worth protesting. So the two violent Islamist-extremist terrorists who showed up to attack people at the event, and got what they deserved for it, are not at all representative of Texas Muslims in general. Please explain what it is about that perfectly reasonable point that you think “sounds like gibberish”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/630 "2015-05-04T17:22:24Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The problem with Muslims launching a mass-murder plot against people exercising their free speech rights is – that “conservatives” are relieved the plot was foiled. > > [http://www.salon.com/2015/05/04/good\_news\_both\_muslim\_savages\_are\_dead\_here\_are\_the\_most\_heinous\_conservative\_reactions\_to\_the\_garland\_shooting/](http://www.salon.com/2015/05/04/good_news_both_muslim_savages_are_dead_here_are_the_most_heinous_conservative_reactions_to_the_garland_shooting/) As **A’isha** pointed out, your cite doesn’t say what you claim it says. (Pretty much no cite you ever post actually says what you claim it says.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/631 "2015-05-04T17:25:51Z")
> [@andros](#): > > On the one hand, **Haberdash** is clearly and by his/her own admission trolling here, and I hate to give trolls the attention they crave. > > OTOH, thank for beating your head against that wall, **Kimstu**. It’s heartening to see rationality standing up to hateful trollery. No problem, least I could do. And when he starts unleashing his bigotry directly against fellow posters, that’s a bit much to stomach. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/632 "2015-05-04T17:35:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What doesn’t make sense about it? > > The argument is that the vast majority of Texas Muslims didn’t even think this event was worth protesting. So the two violent Islamist-extremist terrorists who showed up to attack people at the event, and got what they deserved for it, are not at all representative of Texas Muslims in general. > > Please explain what it is about that perfectly reasonable point that you think “sounds like gibberish”. That point is fine semantically. The problem is the method used to argue it: the phrases “statistical noise” and “rounding error” have specific statistical terms, referring to the residuals in a regression and the error between an calculated and an actual value due to rounding respectively. **A’isha’s** post doesn’t use these phrases in their proper form, or even in a form that’s similar to their proper use. The terms are just tossed into a discussion of morality, and that’s why it’s (statistically) gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/633 "2015-05-04T17:39:45Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > That point is fine semantically. The problem is the method used to argue it: the phrases “statistical noise” and “rounding error” have specific statistical terms, referring to the residuals in a regression and the error between an calculated and an actual value due to rounding respectively. **A’isha’s** post doesn’t use these phrases in their proper form, or even in a form that’s similar to their proper use. The terms are just tossed into a discussion of morality, and that’s why it’s (statistically) gibberish. Kimstu certainly had no difficultly grasping my meaning. The semantic point was the only one I was making. My use of those phrases was rhetorical only, and not an attempt to actually use those terms in a proper statistical sense. I’m sorry if I confused you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/634 "2015-05-04T17:50:08Z")
I probably could have tried harder to understand your point. Sorry, I’m a little grumpy today. [So it turns out](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/us/garland-texas-shooting-muhammad-cartoons.html) the gunman was sentenced to probation in 2010 and was surveiled by law enforcement a few months before the attacks. Does this change anything? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/635 "2015-05-04T17:51:06Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Even though **A’isha** has never done anything to injure **Haberdash** and has constantly condemned Islamist-terrorist acts, _ **Haberdash** will gladly stoop to mocking her as a terrorist **simply because she’s Muslim** _. I’m used to it. On another forum, someone actually called me a jihadi, so Haberdash’s “jokes” barely register for me. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/636 "2015-05-04T17:53:38Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > I probably could have tried harder to understand your point. Sorry, I’m a little grumpy today. It’s okay. 🙂 I also apologize for snarking back at you like that. > [@](#): > > [So it turns out](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/us/garland-texas-shooting-muhammad-cartoons.html) the gunman was sentenced to probation in 2010 and was surveiled by law enforcement a few months before the attacks. Does this change anything? It makes me wonder why, if the authorities already had their eyes on him as a potential terrorist, they weren’t able to head this attack off in time. Did someone drop the ball, or did they actually decide he wasn’t a threat and stop watching him so closely? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/637 "2015-05-04T18:02:06Z")
Yeah, it will definitely be interesting to see if this was due to a one-off mistake of someone slipping through the cracks or due to a more systemic failure. If it’s the first case, then we just need to double-down and try harder. But if this was due to the limited resources and the fact that terrorism is intrinsically hard to track, that’d pose some difficult questions. Do we throw more money and law enforcement resources at this issue? Abridge free speech and censor advocacy of terrorism and religious violence online? Choose to accept some terrorism as a part of life? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/638 "2015-05-04T18:23:28Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > Yeah, it will definitely be interesting to see if this was due to a one-off mistake of someone slipping through the cracks or due to a more systemic failure. I’m not sure I see any actual “failure” on the part of the feds here. The flip side to having a free society is that you can’t lock people up before they’ve actually committed a crime, no matter how criminally-inclined they seem to be. It seems clear that they knew this guy had had plans to travel to Somalia to fight with jihadis, but that was war, and US citizens are allowed to fight in foreign wars if they’re not against the US. Other than just keeping a general eye on him as a name on the watchlist, what more could they legitimately have been expected to do? The free society that we are trying to defend from both violent criminals and paranoid rights-infringing bigots requires that even bad guys have rights that you can’t set aside until and unless you catch them actually doing something bad. Still, if more money and law-enforcement resources will increase our chances of catching bad guys doing something bad before they hurt anyone, without infringing the rights of anyone who must be presumed-innocent-until-proven-guilty on general principle, I’d be in favor of that. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/639 "2015-05-04T18:33:59Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > Choose to accept some terrorism as a part of life? That’s pretty much the only sane option. That doesn’t mean scrapping any and all efforts at security, but in that field returns diminish sharply past a certain point and resources are not infinite, especially in DON’T YOU FUCKING DARE TALK ABOUT RAISING TAXES America ;). I’m perfectly fine with government hovering somewhere around that point and accepting that sometimes, rarely but surely, tragic shit will happen. And that’s just the cost of [del]doing business[/del]living in something other than a dystopian police state. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/640 "2015-05-04T18:56:20Z")
Meanwhile, Slate chose today to run this piece: > **[Ayaan Hirsi Ali Doesn’t Understand What It’s Like to Be a Muslim Living in...](https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/05/ayaan-hirsi-ali-time-article-beware-of-michiganistan-what-she-doesnt-understand-about-american-muslims.html)** > > A version of this article originally appeared in Context, New America’s Medium publication. I would have assumed Ali learned quite enough about Islam from being a Muslim for the first thirty years of her life, or from being held down and having her genitalia carved out at age five, or from the seven years she spent working in shelters for abused women fleeing Muslim marriages. But anyone who speaks against these practices is the enemy so we’ll leave all of that out of the article; the only legitimate topic is “Islamophobia” and why people who have a problem with this culture are wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=33)