# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/681 "2015-05-04T22:12:00Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Yes, it is. The use of law or force to prevent the free exercise of speech by another is censorship. And since what Eltahawy did was neither of those things, it wasn’t censorship by your own definition. > [@](#): > > The examples in this thread were not mere protests of the showing No, that’s exactly what they were. And we know that you, hypocrite that you are, are against the protestors being allowed to use their own freedom of expression to make those protests. > [@](#): > > How do I know that you don’t define “calling you out on your bullshit” to include murdering me? Well, you apparently are so deranged by your hatred that you’ve lost all connection with reality, so that probably has a lot to do with the _how_ you don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/682 "2015-05-04T22:16:03Z")
Don’t shoot! You’re the one who thinks “destroying speech that upsets the hypersensitive Muslim feelings ecosystem” is what “freedom of expression” means. It would be foolish for anyone to assume that you are using words to mean what they actually mean. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/683 "2015-05-04T22:19:06Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The cartoon contest was not fatal. This is sheer willful idiocy on your part. Events that are not **intrinsically** deadly can and do still get described as “fatal” if they happen to end in a fatality. For example, taking a holiday trip is not intrinsically deadly: [Fatal Holiday Trips](http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15483919) A Christmas party is not intrinsically deadly: [Christmas Party Turns Fatal](http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-christmas-party-turns-fatal-for-borivli-woman-2047046) Flying a hang glider is not intrinsically deadly: [Fatal hang glide flight](http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/02/11/pilot-of-fatal-hang-glide-flight-gets-five-months-in-jail) “Fatal” is not used **only** to modify nouns like “shooting”, “stabbing”, “crash”, etc., which are direct **causes** of fatality. It can **also** be applied to any event that happens to **end** in a fatality, irrespective of who or what was directly to blame for the fatality. The “Draw Muhammad” event was a stunt that happened to end in a fatality. Hence, “fatal stunt”. If this kind of tortuous interpretation is the best you can do in attempting to pretend that the media are somehow “blaming” the victims of the terror attack… well, nobody is even a little bit surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/684 "2015-05-04T22:21:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Neither the quoted tweet nor anything else you’ve offered up from your so-called “dhimmi media” actually accuses Gellar of “causing people to die”. **Nobody has said she is to blame for the terrorist attack or that she or any other of the participants in the event deserved to be attacked by terrorists.** Abortion clinic bombed –\> “Planned Parenthood defends their fatal anti-life stunt” Rape/murder –\> “Slut defends her fatal short-skirt stunt” Eric Garner – \> “Blacks defend fatal anti-cigarette-tax stunt” These headlines seem like an accurate and neutral reporting of events to you? This is what “Pam Geller defends her fatal anti-Muslim stunt” is – exactly the same vile attempt to spin the victim as being responsible for deaths caused by perpetrators. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/685 "2015-05-04T22:21:51Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > Free speech doesn’t require honesty and isn’t a particularly meaningful concept at the personal level. It’s an issue for governments and those who run them (that is, us), but it’s not something that an individual can really be accused of violating. True. But it’s kind of ironic when somebody who claims to be devoted to free speech apparently values it only for the lies he can tell with it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/686 "2015-05-04T22:22:30Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Don’t shoot! > > … > > How do I know that you don’t define “calling you out on your bullshit” to include murdering me? [Moderating] Alright, that’s enough. We tolerate a lot of bullshit in the Pit, but repeatedly insinuating that someone is a murderer based solely on their religion has crossed the line from being a garden variety dick-head to outright hate speech. Knock that shit off, or your time on this board will come to a quick and unlamented end. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/687 "2015-05-04T22:31:44Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Abortion clinic bombed –\> “Planned Parenthood defends their fatal anti-life stunt” Operating a Planned Parenthood clinic is not a “stunt”. [QUOTE=Haberdash] Rape/murder –\> “Slut defends her fatal short-skirt stunt” [/quote] Wearing ordinary clothing is not a “stunt”. [QUOTE=Haberdash] Eric Garner – \> “Blacks defend fatal anti-cigarette-tax stunt” [/quote] Selling black-market cigarettes for a living is not a “stunt”. An example that would be actually analogous would be if, say, Hillary Clinton did a campaign photo-op on a Navy vessel, and through no fault of hers the vessel collided with a smaller boat and a crew member drowned. _Then a tweet about the fatality might well say “Clinton defends her fatal aircraft-carrier stunt”. And that would not imply that Clinton was necessarily to blame for the death._ You see, **Haberdash** , calling something a “fatal stunt” requires two things: (a) that it end in a fatality, and (b) that it be a stunt. A PR event such as a campaign photo-op, or a “Troll the Muslims with Cartoons” exhibit, **is** a stunt. The other situations that you were deludedly trying to shoehorn into the same sort of language are not. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/688 "2015-05-04T22:59:46Z")
[http://www.cair.com/press-center/press-releases/12950-cair-condemns-attack-on-anti-islam-event-in-texas.html](http://www.cair.com/press-center/press-releases/12950-cair-condemns-attack-on-anti-islam-event-in-texas.html) > [@](#): > > We condemn yesterday’s attack on an anti-Islam event in Garland, Texas, without reservation. > > We also reiterate our view that violence in response to anti-Islam programs like the one in Garland is more insulting to our faith than any cartoon, however defamatory. Bigoted speech can never be an excuse for violence. > > Muslims in North Texas and across the nation are shocked and saddened by this inexcusable attack and pray for the speedy recovery of the officer injured by the attackers. > > We thank the Garland Police Department for its swift actions to ensure public safety. > > Unfortunately, human history shows us that hatred breeds more hatred and extremism leads to more extremism. > > Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Geert Wilders and the perpetrators of yesterday’s attack all seek to provoke a downward spiral of mutual hostility and mistrust in America and around the world. > > People of good will must work together to ensure that extremists of all faiths and backgrounds do not accomplish that malevolent goal. > > We reiterate the American Muslim community’s support for freedom of speech - even bigoted speech – and its repudiation of terrorism in any form. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/689 "2015-05-04T23:37:49Z")
More examples to come, whilst the Deflectionists quibble over semantics and how best to avoid the irrefutable truth of my OP. Unfortunately, political correctness does not negate reality.\* South Park\* and _Family Guy_, who have built empires on mocking prophets, still cannot so much as depict Muhammad. Who are we beholden to in the false name of cultural sensitivity? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/690 "2015-05-04T23:42:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You see, Haberdash, calling something a “fatal stunt” requires two things: (a) that it end in a fatality, and (b) that it be a stunt. If a civil rights group organised a protest march, and someone opened fire on the marchers and killed someone, and it was reported in the news as a ‘Fatal protest’, do you honestly not think it would betray a certain amount of bias against the protest? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/691 "2015-05-04T23:43:57Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Unfortunately, political correctness does not negate reality.\* South Park\* and _Family Guy_, who have built empires on mocking prophets, still cannot so much as depict Muhammad. Who are we beholden to in the false name of cultural sensitivity? The sad fact of the matter is that, when it comes to Islam, we lost our freedom of speech rights a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/692 "2015-05-05T00:17:54Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > The sad fact of the matter is that, when it comes to Islam, we lost our freedom of speech rights a long time ago. As you can tell from the way Stringbean and Haberdash and truthSeeker2 have been prevented from saying their bullshit in this thread. Or the way Geert Wilders and Pamela Geller were able to go on TV and post on their blogs right after this attack. Or the way Robert Spencer, Frank Gaffney, Debbie Schlussel, Walid Shoebat, Brigitte Gabriel, Terry Jones, Joel Richardson, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Pat Robertson, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, the EDL, and PEGIDA have all been silenced for years. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/693 "2015-05-05T00:47:03Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > The sad fact of the matter is that, when it comes to Islam, we lost our freedom of speech rights a long time ago. Do you mean to say that the U.S. Government has violated someone’s right to free speech concerning Islam? I’d love to know the particulars. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/694 "2015-05-05T00:47:21Z")
“You can depict Muhammad if you wish but you may or may not face violent reprisal” is far from the Western ideal of freedom of expression. A [gentle](https://youtu.be/BAtGaz4UmMU) reminder. Guess who’s behind the censored sign and why He was censored. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/695 "2015-05-05T01:05:15Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > “You can depict Muhammad if you wish but you may or may not face violent reprisal” is far from the Western ideal of freedom of expression. In Iran, you can buy postcards depicting Muhammad. They’re quite popular there. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/696 "2015-05-05T01:18:54Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > If a civil rights group organised a protest march, and someone opened fire on the marchers and killed someone, and it was reported in the news as a ‘Fatal protest’, do you honestly not think it would betray a certain amount of bias against the protest? Yes, of course it would. If all you’re asking is **“Did the _Salon_ tweet about Geller’s “fatal stunt” betray a certain amount of bias against the event?”** , I think the answer is clearly “yes”. The tweet’s tone was definitely somewhat disparaging and disrespectful towards Geller and her activities. And if someone wants to argue that it showed insufficient sympathy for Geller’s recent experience of having been (close to being) under deadly attack, I won’t quarrel with that. **But that’s not at all the same as claiming that it _actually BLAMED Geller or the other attack targets for the fatalities_, or _actually suggested that the attack targets DESERVED to be attacked by terrorists_.** And those statements are what **Haberdash** was dishonestly and ineffectually trying to claim. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/697 "2015-05-05T01:27:09Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > “You can depict Muhammad if you wish but you may or may not face violent reprisal” is far from the Western ideal of freedom of expression. Indeed it is. But as **samclem** pointed out to **Doctor\_Why\_Bother** , having a small subset of the Western world’s population committing violent crimes in an effort to suppress free expression **is not at all the same thing as actually _losing one’s rights_ to freedom of expression**. The people in the Western world who are actually having free-expression **rights** curtailed are not the people trash-talking Islam, but people like the abovementioned antisemitic comedian Dieudonne who gets repeatedly banned and fined for trash-talking Jews and expressing “sympathy” for terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/698 "2015-05-05T01:34:29Z")
Wikipedia has [a whole bunch of depictions of Muhammad](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Depictions_of_Muhammad), ranging from modern Western caricatures to classical Islamic art. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/699 "2015-05-05T06:28:11Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > The sad fact of the matter is that, when it comes to Islam, we lost our freedom of speech rights a long time ago. How? > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > What a vile little toad you are. Yes and troll It is sad in any case this event. Those two idiots deserved what they got. I find it as sad that such trolling groups exist, as I do not see any great difference between the childish bigotry in drawing nasty pictures of the prophet and drawing anti-semetic pictures aimed at the jews. the fact the similar visual tropes come in both says very much. both are protected by the free speech, both also show rudeness and lack of civlization. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/700 "2015-05-05T10:15:20Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > As you can tell from the way Stringbean and Haberdash and truthSeeker2 have been prevented from saying their bullshit in this thread. Or the way Geert Wilders and Pamela Geller were able to go on TV and post on their blogs right after this attack. Or the way Robert Spencer, Frank Gaffney, Debbie Schlussel, Walid Shoebat, Brigitte Gabriel, Terry Jones, Joel Richardson, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Pat Robertson, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, the EDL, and PEGIDA have all been silenced for years. In America, free speech rights are guaranteed by _de jure_ by the Constitution. They’re _de facto_ guaranteed by the will of the people. The fact of the matter is that there are certain things you simply cannot say about Islam. Take the musical ‘Book of Mormon’ for example. The right to put on that musical is guaranteed by law, but equally important is the fact that Mormons aren’t in the habit of dispatching assassins to silence critics, as Ayatollah Khomeini did when the Satanic Verses came out. It is impossible to imagine anyone putting on a comedy musical about Muhammad. That is, unless you’re also willing to imagine them spending the rest of their lives fending off credible threats of murder. Y’know, like Geert Wilders, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and several of the other people you mentioned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=36)