# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/701 "2015-05-05T10:39:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yes, of course it would. > > If all you’re asking is **“Did the _Salon_ tweet about Geller’s “fatal stunt” betray a certain amount of bias against the event?”** , I think the answer is clearly “yes”. > > The tweet’s tone was definitely somewhat disparaging and disrespectful towards Geller and her activities. And if someone wants to argue that it showed insufficient sympathy for Geller’s recent experience of having been (close to being) under deadly attack, I won’t quarrel with that. > > **But that’s not at all the same as claiming that it _actually BLAMED Geller or the other attack targets for the fatalities_, or _actually suggested that the attack targets DESERVED to be attacked by terrorists_.** > > And those statements are what **Haberdash** was dishonestly and ineffectually trying to claim. Looking back over the conversation I can see you’re right. I misunderstood what Haberdash was trying to say so I withdraw the point. If you could chalk it up to posting while decaffeinated I’d appreciate it 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/702 "2015-05-05T13:07:47Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > The fact of the matter is that there are certain things you simply cannot say about Islam. Like what? What not only can’t be said, but _hasn’t_ been said many times about Islam? > [@](#): > > It is impossible to imagine anyone putting on a comedy musical about Muhammad. That’s your barometer? People regularly tour the country and go on TV saying the most vile, hateful things about Islam, but because no one has made a comedy musical about Muhammad then “when it comes to Islam, we lost our freedom of speech rights a long time ago”? As a side note, [here’s](http://islamicanews.com/) my own favorite Muslim humor site. It’s basically a Muslim version of The Onion. Some of my favorite articles there include [Convert with Lazy Eye Has Trouble Lowering His Gaze, At Least One Eye Going to Burn in Hell](http://islamicanews.com/convert-lazy-eye-trouble-lowering-gaze/), [Muslim Nerds Translate Quran to Klingon](http://islamicanews.com/muslim-nerds-translate-quran-klingon/), [Handsome Imam Will Give ‘50 Shades of Grey-Area’ Sermon This Friday](http://islamicanews.com/handsome-imam-will-give-50-shades-grey-area-sermon-friday/), and [10 Steps to Getting a Second Wife](http://islamicanews.com/10-steps-getting-second-wife/). > [@](#): > > Y’know, like Geert Wilders, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and several of the other people you mentioned. And yet the threats they face haven’t caused them to pull back from their words and comments about Islam. Just the opposite, really. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/703 "2015-05-05T13:17:05Z")
[_Charlie Hebdo_ Cartoonists Distance Themselves from Texas Event: ‘No Comparison’](http://www.mediaite.com/tv/charlie-hebdo-cartoonists-distance-themselves-from-texas-event-no-comparison/) > [@](#): > > “To be honest, I can imagine the kind of comparison you can make between the _Charlie Hebdo_ attack of January 7 and this event, but there is nothing to do [with one another], there is no comparison, absolutely no comparison,” Jean-Baptiste Thoret said in a clip of a longer interview set to air tonight. > > While he described the group that put on the event in Texas as part of an “anti-Islamic movement” against the “Islamization of the U.S.,” Thoret said the motives of _Charlie Hebdo_ are “absolutely not the same.” For the magazine, he said it “was a question of criticizing” all religions, not Muslim people “in particular.” > > “We don’t organize contests, we just do our work,” Gerard Biard added. “We comment on the news. When Muhammad [pops up] in the news, we draw Muhammad. But if he didn’t, we didn’t — we don’t.” I guess PEN America will have to take away their free speech award now, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/704 "2015-05-05T13:19:51Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > And yet the threats they face haven’t caused them to pull back from their words and comments about Islam. Just the opposite, really. Yes and for Hirsi Ali, she lies a great deal about herself for her self promotion particularly to the islamophobic americans. I do not think even the Al Qaeda care much about her. She does good business. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/705 "2015-05-05T13:42:27Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > Looking back over the conversation I can see you’re right. I misunderstood what Haberdash was trying to say so I withdraw the point. If you could chalk it up to posting while decaffeinated I’d appreciate it 🙂 🙂 No problem at all, you made a valid point! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/706 "2015-05-05T15:03:27Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > It is impossible to imagine anyone putting on a comedy musical about Muhammad. There’s quite a good reason why we don’t get a lot of comedy about Muhammad. It’s not funny. And the reason it isn’t funny is explained more amusingly in this clip from Holy Flying Circus but in short, it’s hard to parody the life of Muhammad when the life of Muhammed isn’t widely known (and the people who do know it are those least likely to find the parody funny). Jesus, sure - you don’t remotely have to be Christian to know pretty much everything about the life of Jesus, given the cultural ubiquity it has achieved in Western society. But Muhammed? Not so much. Might as well do a musical on the wacky antics of the Sasasian Empire or Catullus or Leonel Power. You’d end up having to teach the audience the background before you could do the jokes, and who wants a lecture when you’re having a nice evening out at the theatre? What is far better known about Islam is the current trend of religious extremism, something which is mocked excessively these days in ways from the [ridiculous](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Dunham#Achmed_the_Dead_Terrorist)to the [sublime](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Lions).\* Wacky Middle East terrorists have been a staple of movies for a long time now, and there seems to be little sign of that stopping. Of course, if you do want some Prophet-themed humor there’s always [Jesus and Mo](http://www.jesusandmo.net/). Mind you, as the title implies it’s not just Islam’s ox getting gored there. \*Seriously - if you haven’t seen _Four Lions_, I highly recommend it. And AFAIK no one has tried to murder Chris Morris because of it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/707 "2015-05-05T21:42:15Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > If a civil rights group organised a protest march, and someone opened fire on the marchers and killed someone, and it was reported in the news as a ‘Fatal protest’, do you honestly not think it would betray a certain amount of bias against the protest? Dropping “fatal protest” into Google turns up the following hits. (Several of these stories are repeated in different venues with the same result.) [President, indigenous groups at odds over fatal protest in Ecuador](http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/10/02/ecuador.violence/index.html?_s=PM:WORLD) [Tibetan dies in fatal protest](http://freetibet.org/news-media/na/tibetan-dies-fatal-protest) [Beijing censors news of fatal protest](http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Beijing-censors-news-of-fatal-protest-Perhaps-2588722.php) [Fatal Protest of Income Inequality Largely Ignored by Mainstream Media](http://www.greanvillepost.com/2015/04/21/fatal-protest-of-income-inequality-largely-ignored-by-mainstream-media/) You got this guess utterly wrong. Not one of the Google hits on the first two pages returned from “fatal protest” has a story condemning or even disparaging the protest in which a participant died and the phrase “Fatal protest” was employed n the headline. So, in answer to your question: No. You are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/708 "2015-05-05T22:23:49Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > In Iran, you can buy postcards depicting Muhammad. They’re quite popular there. Didn’t that dude in Iran what calls himself Aya-something issue some Fat-something against that other dude who wrote a book about Muhammad? It’s reassuring that Iran’s secular tolerance rests in his enlightened hands. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/709 "2015-05-05T22:27:05Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Didn’t that dude in Iran what calls himself Aya-something issue some Fat-something against that other dude who wrote a book about Muhammad? > > It’s reassuring that Iran’s secular tolerance rests in his enlightened hands. Ayatollah Khomeini? You know he’s been dead for twenty five years now, right? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/710 "2015-05-05T22:34:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The people in the Western world who are actually having free-expression **rights** curtailed are not the people trash-talking Islam, but people like the abovementioned antisemitic comedian Dieudonne who gets repeatedly banned and fined for trash-talking Jews and expressing “sympathy” for terrorists. Indeed, and it is a travesty that France doesn’t fully value free speech. I have been on that boat since it left the docks. However, my point was that the distinction between the threat of law enforcement and that of radical Islamists with guns is infinitesimally thin. There is a de facto censorship of certain elements of Islamic criticism up to and including mere depictions of Muhammad. Against the will of the writers, Comedy Central forced _South Park_ to censor Muhammad and Fox forced _Family Guy_ to do the same. The only guy _in jail_ for the Benghazi attacks is an American filmmaker who made a film critical of Islam. If you want to argue that, Constitutionally, there is no imposition on the Second Amendment, that may well be true. But, facing the steel tip of a machete, what true freedom exists? If you missed it the first time, watch [this](https://youtu.be/BAtGaz4UmMU) short clip. It brings this issue to a head, and applies not just to radical Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/711 "2015-05-05T22:40:59Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > If you want to argue that, Constitutionally, there is no imposition on the Second Amendment, that may well be true. 😕 Did you mean to say “First Amendment”? The one that’s about freedom of expression, rather than about firearms ownership? [QUOTE=Stringbean] But, facing the steel tip of a machete, what true freedom exists? [/QUOTE] If what you’re trying to say is that threats of violent reprisals by Islamist extremists often have a chilling effect on freedom of expression even absent legal censorship, sure, nobody here is disagreeing with that. And nobody here is disagreeing with the position that it’s a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/712 "2015-05-05T22:45:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Ayatollah Khomeini? > > You know he’s been dead for twenty five years now, right? Indeed. It’s as if his cold, ghastly hands are still pulling the strings. But I’m sure Iran’s a bastion of tolerance under Khameini. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/713 "2015-05-05T22:47:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 Did you mean to say “First Amendment”? The one that’s about freedom of expression, rather than about firearms ownership? Yes sir that’s what I meant. I’m having an off day it seems. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/714 "2015-05-05T22:55:06Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The only guy _in jail_ for the Benghazi attacks is an American filmmaker who made a film critical of Islam. An Egyptian living in America. And he wasn’t put in jail for the Benghazi attacks or for making a film critical of Islam, but for breaking the terms of his probation (using aliases and using the internet without the approval of his probation officer) after being convicted of bank fraud. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/715 "2015-05-05T23:11:44Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > An Egyptian living in America. And he wasn’t put in jail for the Benghazi attacks or for making a film critical of Islam, but for breaking the terms of his probation (using aliases and using the internet without the approval of his probation officer) after being convicted of bank fraud. But, other than that, **Stringbean** got it right. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/716 "2015-05-05T23:47:20Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > But I’m sure Iran’s a bastion of tolerance under Khameini. What part of the observation that _Iran, as a predominantly Shi’ite Muslim country, does not object to visual representations of the Prophet_ sounded to you like an assertion that _Iran is a bastion of tolerance and liberal thinking in every way_? Honestly, **Stringbean** , you’ve got an excluded middle there so vast that a camel team couldn’t cross it. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/717 "2015-05-06T01:19:37Z")
[Lutfur Rahman Turned East London into a Banana Republic](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/01/lutfur-rahman-turned-east-london-into-a-banana-republic.html) > [@](#): > > Long before last week’s revelations the corruption and dirty politics of Lutfur Rahman’s Tower Hamlets had been an open secret. There was even a BBC documentary on the misuse of public funds by his administration. But Rahman had proved almost impossible to bring down because he could always rely on the political correctness of polite liberal society to silence his critics. Whenever a journalist or politician criticised Rahman—or had the temerity to run against him in an election—accusations of racism were sprayed around like mud flung from a spade. For the mayor an accusation of bigotry was not a grave and sinister charge but another tool in the armoury of a bent politician. As the judge put it, Rahman regularly played the ‘race card’ and critics were silenced ‘with accusations of racism and Islamophobia’. > [@](#): > > The judge’s ruling appears to have done little to dampen support for the deposed mayor on the far Left. Last night, a week after the damning verdict, a rally of hundreds of supporters took place in Stepney Green in East London, where Rahman confirmed that he was “exploring the possibility” of challenging the judgment. The rally was made up largely of Rahman’s Bangladeshi supporters—and left-wing activists, including Andrew Murray, the chief of staff at Britain’s biggest trade union Unite, Respect party MP George Galloway, who appeared via video link, former London mayor Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcross from Labour’s National Executive Committee. Shawcross, who is expected to be disciplined by the Labour party for continuing to support Rahman, is also reported to be acting as a trustee of Rahman’s legal defence fund. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/718 "2015-05-06T01:27:31Z")
> > [@](#): > > Dominique Sopo addresses #PenGala in French: Charlie Hebdo worked against racism - for immigrants - and it is important to know what it was ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/719 "2015-05-06T02:42:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What part of the observation that _Iran, as a predominantly Shi’ite Muslim country, does not object to visual representations of the Prophet_ sounded to you like an assertion that _Iran is a bastion of tolerance and liberal thinking in every way_? The middle ground is that Iran is a semi-tolerant Islamic theocracy, whose former leader once issued a death warrant for a guy who wrote a book critical of Islam, and whose current leader has advocated [the destruction of Israel and genocide of all Jews](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097252/Kill-Jews-annihilate-Israel-Irans-supreme-leader-lays-legal-religious-justification-attack.html). Where you place that on the pendulum of Western tolerance is your prerogative, but I don’t think **A’isha** using that one example as something as a counter to the reality that Islamic radicals will threaten violence for depicting Muhammad in America is of any real value. Perhaps you may disagree, but it is what it is. We cower to threats of violence because they are real. When a publication like _Charlie Hebdo_ does not cower, we should all stand and applaud, regardless of whether they are culturally sensitive or not in what they depict. They display a sordid bravery that you and I cannot. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/720 "2015-05-06T05:11:43Z")
[Take It Down](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/05/05/u-minnesota-responds-student-complaint-about-posters) > [@](#): > > When Muslim students complained about posters that promoted the event, the university investigated their concerns and issued a report that questioned the judgment of those who signed off on the posters. And the university sent an email that some interpreted as an order to remove the posters, although the university disputes this. > [@](#): > > According to a heavily redacted series of emails between Coleman, various faculty members and equal opportunity administrators provided to Inside Higher Ed by the university, staff members received a message from the college human resources office on Feb. 13. The email includes a link to the digital flyer, noting that the free speech event “took place several weeks ago.” It continues: “Due to complaints about the image contained in the link, [the equal opportunity office] has requested that the image be removed from any [college] communication in all forms. If your unit still has active links to this page, or image, please remove the image. Please remove any posters on your unit bulletin boards or any other hard copies of flyers that may be still around.” > > Samantha Harris, director of policy research for the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, said she didn’t have detailed knowledge of the case. But she said she was “troubled by the university [equal opportunity office’s] apparent request – despite correctly finding that the posters did not constitute harassment – that [Coleman] ‘voice disapproval’ of the flyer.” > While it would be within the dean’s own free speech rights to criticize the flyer of his own accord, Harris added via email, “the university administration should not be pressuring him to be a mouthpiece for views that are not his own, particularly in light of the fact that a condemnation from the dean would likely have a chilling effect on future expression of this sort.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=37)