# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/721 "2015-05-06T09:01:12Z")
Man, it’s a good thing Christian politicians are never corrupt. And never claim that they’re being discriminated against and persecuted for their religious beliefs, and that they never get any leeway or public support for this. And that Christian groups never pressure university administrators into banning or censoring things. Yup. Only Muslims do that. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/722 "2015-05-06T11:48:17Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > They display a \*\*sordid \*\*bravery that you and I cannot. That word. Are you sure it means what you think it means ? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/723 "2015-05-06T12:16:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Man, it’s a good thing Christian politicians are never corrupt. And never claim that they’re being discriminated against and persecuted for their religious beliefs, and that they never get any leeway or public support for this. And that Christian groups never pressure university administrators into banning or censoring things. > > Yup. Only Muslims do that. and of course it has never been the case of the ethnic religious groups having corrupt politicans exploiting a situation for votes. It never occured in New York or Chicago or anywhere among the christians… ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/724 "2015-05-06T12:17:55Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > But, other than that, **Stringbean** got it right. :rolleyes: funny these two and their silences on their endless errors of fact or Stringbean silences on his compatriots stances… I think this is the practice called the gish gallop. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/725 "2015-05-06T13:07:02Z")
> **[Charlie Hebdo Editor Rejects Pamela Geller Comparisons: She Is Obsessed by Islam](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2015/05/charlie-hebdo-rejects-pamela-geller-comparisons.html)** > > Comparing the two is nonsense, its film critic says. > [@](#): > > Sunday night’s shooting at the art show in Garland, Texas, restarted many of the same debates about free speech and the dangers of cross-cultural provocations that took place in the wake of the _Charlie Hebdo_ massacre in January. But in a discussion today, the French satirical magazine’s editor-in-chief Gérard Biard and its film critic Jean-Baptiste Thoret distanced themselves from the cartoon exhibit and its organizer, Pamela Geller. > > Speaking with Suzanne Nossel, the executive director of PEN American Center, the Charlie Hebdo pair stressed that their job was to start a global debate while those hosting the Garland show simply aimed to provoke. > > “Comparing this Pamela Geller thing and _Charlie Hebdo_ is nonsense,” Thoret said. “It’s an anti-Islamic movement, and she said it’s an anti-Islamic movement, fighting against what she called the Islamization of the U.S.[…]The difference between us and these people is that these people are organizing contests, anti-Islamist contests,” [Biard] continued. “It’s an obsession … We are not obsessed. We are just obsessed by the news, and by how the world is going on. The difference with Pamela Geller, she is obsessed by Islam. She waits every morning and thinks, _What can I do today to defy these people_?” I eagerly await **Haberdash’s** condemnation of Charlie Hebdo’s editor in chief and their cartoonist for engaging in victim-blaming. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/726 "2015-05-06T13:10:15Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That word. Are you sure it means what you think it means ? ANA **Stringbean** and cannot speak for him, but I thought “sordid bravery” was about right as a description of the _Charlie Hebdo_ affair. As in, they were being kind of dicks, but they were courageous and principled in standing up for their right to freely express dickish sentiments despite illegitimate efforts to intimidate and atack them for it. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/727 "2015-05-06T13:23:59Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > [Lutfur Rahman Turned East London into a Banana Republic](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/01/lutfur-rahman-turned-east-london-into-a-banana-republic.html) Published by LexisNexis as a textbook and guidebook to assist English-speaking lawyers in dealing with cases that touch on Islamic law, _Understanding Islamic Law (Sharī’a)_, by Raj Bhala, is an exhaustive, in-depth manual of the various rules and interpretations of _shari’ah_, from marriage to divorce, from contracts to wills. It even covers the opinions of various Islamic scholars and _madh’hab_ on abortion and contraception. The latter is of particular interest to the book’s author, the Rice Distinguished Professor at the University of Kansas School of Law, who is a devout Catholic and who draws many comparisons and contrasts between _shari’ah_ and Catholic canon law throughout the book. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/728 "2015-05-06T13:46:27Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > [Take It Down](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/05/05/u-minnesota-responds-student-complaint-about-posters) This one gets a twofer: Asma Afsaruddin’s [Striving in the Path of God: Jihad and Martyrdom in Islamic Thought](http://www.amazon.com/Striving-Path-God-Martyrdom-Islamic/dp/0199730938/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1430918722&sr=8-2-spell) and Ahmed Al-Dawoody’s The Islamic Law of War: Justifications and Regulations. B Al-Dawoody’s book, as the title indicates, is a good general overview of both the justifications for war in Islamic law, and the rules regulating how such war is to be carried out (what constitutes permissible war, who are permissible targets, how are peace negotiations to be carried out, and so on), covering both historic and modern theories and applications. Afsaruddin’s book, on the other hand, is a verse-by-verse, _hadith_-by-_hadith_ breakdown of how Islamic scholars both medieval and modern constructed those theories of warfare, citing something like two dozen different scholars and exegetes from all periods of Muslim history as she traces the origins and development (and dissensions) of those laws. Both cover very similar ground, but of the two of them I prefer Afsaruddin’s work, if only for the astonish breadth of opinions she covers. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/729 "2015-05-06T19:28:43Z")
[CNN Anchor Says Constitution Doesn’t Protect Hate Speech](http://reason.com/blog/2015/05/06/cnn-anchor-says-constitution-doesnt-prot#.fkxirj:ji79) > [@](#): > > As it turns out, the Supreme Court has consistently interpreted the First Amendment to protect all kinds of odious speech, including speech perceived to be hateful. Constitutional speech protections wouldn’t be very strong if they did not include hate speech, since one person’s statement of hate is another’s statement of truth. “George Bush is a war criminal” might be construed as a hateful statement if you’re George Bush, after all. > > There are indeed limits on the First Amendment; the Supreme Court has held that “fighting words” and incitements to specific and imminent violence are not protected. But as recently as 2011, the Court ruled 8-1 that the Westboro Baptist Church had a First Amendment right to picket a military funeral and wave signs that read “You’re going to hell” and “Thank God for dead soldiers.” > > In other words, it doesn’t look like the Court is ready to undertake some vast reinterpretation of the First Amendment that would possibly justify the claims of the “hate speech isn’t protected” brigade. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/730 "2015-05-06T19:52:55Z")
[More on the University of Minnesota Charlie Hebdo controversy: ‘There are limits on free speech’](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/06/more-on-the-university-of-minnesota-charlie-hebdo-controversy-there-are-limits-on-free-speech/) > [@](#): > > Kimberly Hewitt, the director [of the EOAA], said her office had no choice but to investigate. “There are limits on free speech, and that would be where you have harassment of an individual based on their identity,” she said. “We got complaints from eight individuals and a petition from 300 people saying that they felt that this was insulting, disparaging to their faith.” > [@](#): > > Indeed, even speech that intentionally “disparag[es]” “faith[s]” is exactly the sort of thing that universities should host, alongside speech that defends people’s faiths, or that disparages or defends political, moral or scientific beliefs. (The Establishment Clause has been read as prohibiting governments, including public universities, from taking official stances on theology or on the merits of various religions, but it most certainly does not prohibit panels on religious topics, or panels that discuss controversies or current events that involve religious belief, including in ways that disparage or praise certain beliefs.) Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, atheism, feminism, socialism, capitalism, nihilism, existentialism — all of these (and much more) are proper subjects for academic discussion and critique, no matter who might find it “personally offensive and hurtful.” > > It is true that even quoted blasphemy, as in the event flyer, is “disrespect[ful],” in the following way: It communicates to members of a certain religion, “We do not feel ourselves bound to respect your demands about what we should or should not say.” And “respect” here means both “abide by” and “express respect for.” > > But this particular kind of disrespect is the very essence of academic freedom — the judgment that no religious group can set the terms for what can or cannot be said or shown. Fortunately, it looks like the academics at the University of Minnesota, including the dean, understand that principle. Unfortunately, it looks like they have not (or at least had not) made sure that the EOAA abides by it. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/731 "2015-05-06T21:22:20Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > [CNN Anchor Says Constitution Doesn’t Protect Hate Speech](http://reason.com/blog/2015/05/06/cnn-anchor-says-constitution-doesnt-prot#.fkxirj:ji79) Charles Allen’s God’s Terrorists: The Wahhabi Cult and the Hidden Roots of Modern Jihad is a must-read for anyone seeking knowledge about what drives groups like the Taliban and al-Qaeda. It heavily focuses on the former, going into great detail about how al-Wahhab’s fundamentalist movement in 18th Century Saudi Arabia spread into Central Asia and how that influenced Debandi theology and ultimately the fundamentalist theologies that predominate in countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan. It also traces, though in much briefer fashion, the development of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia, and how the two fundamentalist strains eventually collided and merged with Osama Bid Laden and his terrorist group linking up with the Taliban. > [@Haberdash](#): > > [More on the University of Minnesota Charlie Hebdo controversy: ‘There are limits on free speech’](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/06/more-on-the-university-of-minnesota-charlie-hebdo-controversy-there-are-limits-on-free-speech/) The Heirs of Muhammad: Islam’s First Century and the Origins of the Sunni-Shia Split, by Barnaby Rogerson, is an eminently readable history of the political split among the early Muslim community that took place after Muhammad’s death and how it developed into a full-blown theological rift that has repercussions even today. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/732 "2015-05-06T21:25:16Z")
[Jewish man attacked in Paris suburb after leaving synagogue](http://www.jewishaz.com/us_worldnews/world/jewish-man-attacked-in-paris-suburb-after-leaving-synagogue/article_4470a4aa-ed28-11e4-ab8b-af1f85d62e1f.html) > [@](#): > > A man with an Arab appearance, whom the victim estimated was 25 years old, followed him into an alley, yelled “dirty Jew” and hit him in the face, according to the BNVCA report. Two other men, whom the victim also described as Arabs, joined the alleged aggressor and also hit the Jewish man. > > “Even as synagogues, schools and other Jewish community institutions are watched over by police and troops, Jews remains vulnerable targets on the street or in their place of business,” BNVCA wrote in a statement about the incident. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/733 "2015-05-06T21:42:18Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > [Jewish man attacked in Paris suburb after leaving synagogue](http://www.jewishaz.com/us_worldnews/world/jewish-man-attacked-in-paris-suburb-after-leaving-synagogue/article_4470a4aa-ed28-11e4-ab8b-af1f85d62e1f.html) [Twenty-six mosques around France have been subject to attack by firebombs, gunfire, pig heads, and grenades as Muslims are targeted with violence in the wake of the Paris attacks.](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/firebombs-and-pigs-heads-thrown-into-mosques-as-antimuslim-attacks-increase-after-paris-shootings-9977423.html) [80% of Anti-Muslim Attacks in France Against Women, Says Report](http://europe.newsweek.com/80-anti-muslim-attacks-france-against-women-says-report-307389) Our book this time is Wael Hallaq’s near-encyclopedic The Origins and Evolution of Islamic Law. I don’t think I could improve upon the book’s own introduction in order to explain what it’s all about: “This book, covering more than three centuries of legal history, presents an important account of of how Islamic developed its own law while drawing on ancient Near Eastern legal cultures, Arabian customary law and Quranic reform. The development of the judiciary, legal reasoning and legal authority during the first century is discussed in detail as is the dramatic rise of Prophetic authority, the crystallization of legal theory and the formation of the all-important legal schools. Finally, the book explores the interplay between law and politics, explaining how the jurists and the ruling elite led a symbiotic existence and mutual dependency that - seemingly paradoxically - allowed Islamic law and its application to be uniquely independent of the ‘state’.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/734 "2015-05-06T22:16:32Z")
[Amid Death Threats and Attacks on Muslims](https://news.vice.com/article/amid-death-threats-and-attacks-on-muslims-garland-remains-divided-in-wake-of-draw-muhammad-shootings) > [@](#): > > Local Muslim leader Alia Salem, who held a press conference in the neighboring town of Richardson Monday to condemn Sunday’s failed attack, told VICE News she received a death threat over the phone on Tuesday morning. […] > > Salem said that when she tried to explain that she was not affiliated with the shooters, the caller said: “If I see you or any of you dirty motherfuckers, or if you show up at my house, I’m going to take you out like they took those bastards out on Sunday. That’s how we deal with your kind in Texas.” ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/735 "2015-05-06T23:05:14Z")
[Promiscuous women cause earthquakes, claims Iranian cleric](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/promiscuous-women-cause-earthquakes-claims-iranian-cleric-10229912.html) > [@](#): > > Sadeghi is a senior cleric who was last year appointed by Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei as a substitute prayer leader in Tehran, a powerful position with Khamenei himself being the official prayer leader. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/736 "2015-05-06T23:31:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That word. Are you sure it means what you think it means ? Snooze. Read **Kimstu** ’s reply. The word choice was spot-on. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/737 "2015-05-07T01:49:48Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > [Promiscuous women cause earthquakes, claims Iranian cleric](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/promiscuous-women-cause-earthquakes-claims-iranian-cleric-10229912.html) What does a Shia cleric have to do with ISIS, the Taliban or Al Quaeda? You know that they want us slaughtered don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/738 "2015-05-07T02:52:15Z")
I may not live long enough to complete my reading list, but I want to add to it some of the suggestions in this thread. Thanks for posting, A’isha! ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/739 "2015-05-07T05:28:34Z")
[‘DRAW MUHAMMAD’ WINNER ON GROWING UP IN ISLAM AND DEFEATING THE JIHAD](http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/06/exclusive-draw-muhammad-winner-on-growing-up-in-islam-and-defeating-the-jihad/) > [@](#): > > Quite simply, I wanted to do something different because I’ve been drawing Muhammad for a long time. Ever since the Danish cartoons, and after the Charlie Hebdo attack. Every time something horrific happens. If free speech was under assault, under siege, I drew Muhammad. > > This drawing of Muhammad showed him threatening me. He says, angrily, ‘You Can’t Draw Me,” with a sword in his hand. I respond, ‘That’s Why I Draw You.’” > [@](#): > > Breitbart News: You grew up in a “moderate Muslim” family? > > Bosch Fawstin: Almost all of the women in my generation were beaten by their husbands. There was strong admiration for Hitler in the household, because he killed more Jews than anyone. That’s why I refer to Hitler as Islam’s favorite infidel. They forgive him because he killed more Jews than anyone. we were “Moderate Muslims,” but there was still hardcore misogyny and Jew-hatred in my community. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/740 "2015-05-07T08:50:10Z")
I see that **Haberdash** , having had his arguments destroyed, is reduced to posting random links. I suppose this is an improvement over his previous approach of posting his own thoughts [sic]. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=38)