# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/61 "2015-03-01T17:16:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Nice weaseling. > > The parallels to Marxism, (and the foolish responses of the Western political Right), are pretty obvious to those who are not making up their conclusions before they review the history and evidence. > > Western intervention has resulted in the oppression of a lot of people as the West picked different nations to be proxies in their various marketing and political wars. Prior to the rise of the Soviets, this tended to display as favoring one regional prince over another in developed countries or simply conquering less technologically developed lands. With the rise of Marxism, (as an eventually failed response to address inequalities in Western society), Marxist ideas were exported to many of those nations so that many of them became proxy battlefields for the Great Game between the Soviets and the West, (with China sticking its oar in where it could). The authoritarian regimes supported by the great powers tended to impose their own brands of oppression on the people. In a number of places, the people who were most resistant to the imposed (not democratic) authority happened to be Muslim, so in places such as Iran, Indonesia, and the Philippines, the Muslims were branded Marxists and laws suppressing Islam were enacted. It is a frequent occurrence that persecution will strengthen the most conservative elements of a group. (Witness Polish Catholicism.) When the Soviets could no longer afford to maintain their proxy wars, the most militant members of the Muslim community, having already organized as a response to persecution, then stepped forward to present their ideas for a “more just” society. Any place where people perceive injustice as the being supported by Western secularism, the more militant Muslims will seize on that pretext to promote their beliefs. > > To pretend that the conflict has nothing to do with Western intervention is to simply declare that one has no interest in facts or history. I don’t disagree with any of that. It has nothing to do with hardline Islamists killing a blogger from their own country who wrote criticisms of Islam. That’s like blaming the slaveowner when a slave kills another slave for sleeping with his wife. Sure the slaveowner did fucked up shit and caused inestimable harm, but that has nothing to do with the actual incident at hand or its repercussions. It’s okay to place responsibility on the responsible party. Why you and others have insisted on making this about Western interventionism is inexplicable, other than to provide a strawman on which to deflect the actual incident in question. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/62 "2015-03-01T18:15:17Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > It’s okay to place responsibility on the responsible party. Why you and others have insisted on making this about Western interventionism is inexplicable, other than to provide a strawman on which to deflect the actual incident in question. Well, I’ve been reading the discussion trying to understand the various points of view, and now I’m confused, **Stringbean** …\* Did you start the thread to chastise Muslims for being “lax to initiate” “the hard work of rooting out the violent intolerant sectors of [their] society”, or did you want to simply decry this particular incident and shake your head sadly at the immorality of some individuals, regardless of the socio-political context in question? Please help me to understand your nuanced sensibility regarding Islamic extremism. \*Purely rhetorically, unfortunately. Obvious weasel is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/63 "2015-03-01T18:57:53Z")
There’s a cultural clash occurring in the Muslim world between those who want increased secularism and those who want Islam to dominate their society. This incident illuminates that struggle. Those responsible knew what they were doing and did so with religious motivation. This incident has nothing to do with historical Western interventionism, and everything to do with the cultural clash I have described many times, both in the OP and in subsequent posts. Those who derailed the thread into the evils perpetrated by Western colonialists sought to distract from the clear premise I have outlined above. Do you wish to join the strawman or debate honestly? The choice to weasel without obfuscation is yours. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/64 "2015-03-01T19:25:39Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > There’s a cultural clash occurring in the Muslim world between those who want increased secularism and those who want Islam to dominate their society. > > This incident illuminates that struggle. Those responsible knew what they were doing and did so with religious motivation. > > This incident has nothing to do with historical Western interventionism, and everything to do with the cultural clash I have described many times, both in the OP and in subsequent posts. So you seem to be saying that the incident which prompted your OP ‘illuminates’ a conflict between radical religious fundamentalists and proponents of secular government that you imagine to be taking place within ‘the Muslim world’ (which you haven’t defined beyond the very general label of a shared religion) but this conflict is _not_ illuminated by any examination of the historical contexts from which the conflicting societal forces of that same ‘Muslim world’ emerged? Further, you seem to be arguing that the radical elements are a more or less cohesive historically _regressive_ faction while the ‘secularists’ are a new, poorly organized and ineffectively expressed _progressive_ category of Muslims who are collectively too fearful (or too lazy, weak willed or otherwise intransigent) to do any required ‘heavy lifting’ which might change their very very Muslim world for the better. Yep. It’s the _rest_ of us weaselling out of your hard headed examination in order to preserve our presuppositions. Yes sir. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/65 "2015-03-01T20:01:25Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Islamists killing an Islamic apostate over the latter’s criticism of the state of the religion says a lot of Muslim culture in that region of the world and little of what the Western interventionist powers do or want. Right. It all happened in a vacuum. There is no history that precedes this event. Fundamentalist Muslims and secularized Muslims simply popped into existence a couple of years ago, like atoms in a bad claim about quantum physics. I doubt that even you believe this, although you have to pretend that it is true to maintain your street cred with the rest of the followers of Fox News. > [@Stringbean](#): > > This is an example, and quite an easy one at that, of inter-Muslim strife. Blaming whitey is a cop-out for those who wish to deny the cultural clash that is occurring. The only contribution the West made to this tragedy was to give Roy the platform to express his views. And here you are the one creating a straw man. No one in this thread has “blamed whitey” for this action. There have simply been responses to your silly claims that > [@Stringbean](#): > > I talk often of how Muslims need to voice their anger at the hardliners who are destroying the image of their religion abroad. Avijit Roy was one of the precious few with the courage to do so. > > How many more brave souls will face the cold steel of Islam’s Machete before the shallow tolerance of criticism is allowed? The reality is that there are many Muslims who promote secularism. The reality is that the extremists who wish to take Islam back to the seventh century have been given ammunition to gather support by the actions of the West. Pretending that this is strictly an internecine struggle without acknowledging the roles that outsiders have played in the situation is dishonest. Pretending that Muslim secularists are some tiny number of frightened people who rarely speak out is either dishonest or utterly ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/66 "2015-03-01T20:55:04Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > …Islam’s Machete … Fail ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/67 "2015-03-02T00:09:56Z")
If anything, it would be a scimitar. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/68 "2015-03-02T01:49:51Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > If anything, it would be a scimitar. Pirate Muslims wield the… Scimityarrrrrr ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/69 "2015-03-02T01:54:59Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Fail No, they succeeded. You can [see the picture (NSFW)](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/27/2627E66A00000578-2971508-Brutal_This_image_circulated_by_extremists_on_social_media_shows-a-66_1425059963888.jpg) for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/70 "2015-03-02T02:01:35Z")
Oh, _well_ done. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/71 "2015-03-02T02:49:08Z")
Ain’t no bimbobot gonna one-line me, sista. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/72 "2015-03-02T18:27:06Z")
pinched Bangladesh says arrests main suspect in U.S. blogger’ s killing > **[Bangladesh says arrests main suspect in U.S. blogger' s killing](https://news.yahoo.com/bangladesh-says-arrests-main-suspect-u-blogger-killing-085319163.html)** > > By Serajul Quadir DHAKA (Reuters) - Bangladesh's anti-terrorism unit said it had arrested on Monday the main suspect in the killing of a U.S. blogger who was hacked to death in Dhaka last week in the latest attack on critics of religious extremism in... ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/73 "2015-03-06T00:34:12Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > To their credit, many Bangladeshis immediately took to the streets to protest the killing. I can’t help but find something kind of offensive underlying this statement. What if there wasn’t an outward reaction of the kind that you personally approve of? Who are you to offer them credit? ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/74 "2015-03-06T01:05:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I can’t help but find something kind of offensive underlying this statement. What if there wasn’t an outward reaction of the kind that you personally approve of? Who are you to offer them credit? A member of a society where you don’t get randomly murdered for being an atheist? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/75 "2015-03-06T01:12:45Z")
Perhaps I added that statement to provide the context for my alleged cultural struggle. Otherwise you just have a story of a brutal killing with no counter-narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/76 "2015-03-06T02:12:02Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > A member of a society where you don’t get randomly murdered for being an atheist? Are you _absolutely certain_ that no one in your society has ever been “randomly murdered” for being something or other that he or she shouldn’t have been murdered for? Are you _absolutely certain_ that were such an event to be brought to your attention that your first thought would be to “I must immediately join a protest march that will definitely be recorded by video cameras and shown on television”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/77 "2015-03-06T04:29:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Are you _absolutely certain_ that no one in your society has ever been “randomly murdered” for being something or other that he or she shouldn’t have been murdered for? Especially considering that the US ranks 91st of all the world’s nations in [intentional homicide rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country), whereas those horrid bloodthirsty Bangladeshis come in at… um… 130th. Christian fanatics here in the US murder abortion providers who are violating no laws whatsoever. Rabid Islamophobes terrorize and attack Muslims (or people who they think look like Muslims) who are doing no harm to aybody. I don’t think our society has all that much room to scold Bangladeshis for their culture’s willingness to inflict fanatical violence on the innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/78 "2015-03-06T04:35:54Z")
And the idea that you can’t “get randomly murdered for being an atheist” in America also appears to admit of at least one [counterexample](http://vassleer.newsvine.com/_news/2007/01/03/504714-murdered-for-being-an-atheist). ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/79 "2015-03-06T04:42:49Z")
Atheist bloggers aren’t getting murdered in the US. Abortion providers are occasionally killed for their actions, not beliefs. But you kneejerk PC-ers know that, you’re just afraid of nuance, just like your idiot counterparts on the other side. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/80 "2015-03-06T04:47:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And the idea that you can’t “get randomly murdered for being an atheist” in America also appears to admit of at least one [counterexample](http://vassleer.newsvine.com/_news/2007/01/03/504714-murdered-for-being-an-atheist). Ok, they lived together. That’s such a far cry from the case in Bangladesh that I don’t know how you post it seriously. Also, that’s one family of inbred backwoods crazies. So what? That does not equal the Muslim world’s crazy levels of intolerance these days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=5)