# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/961 "2015-05-27T18:06:43Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Even your non-sequitur dodges are unoriginal and oozing with bigotry and hate. > > Pathetic. I admit it – I hate pedophiles and I’m bigoted against rapists. Why this annoys you so says a lot about you and Islam. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/962 "2015-05-27T18:12:41Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > If there was a major world religion that institutionalized its atrocious attitude towards women and children based on the actions of the ancient Greeks, I’d care more. [No you wouldn’t.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=694217) > [@](#): > > The current horrible situation for the sex objects of Muslim men has a lot to do with the fact that the guy who is so revered that you can’t even draw his picture without someone shooting at you is, [Yeah, about that…](https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/17064/ISIM_17_The_Story_of_a_Picture_Shiite_Depictions_of_Muhammad.pdf?sequence=1) > [@](#): > > according to their own scriptures _bzzzt_ Wrong! > [@Haberdash](#): > > I admit it – I hate pedophiles and I’m bigoted against rapists. > > Why this annoys you so says a lot about you and Islam. It annoys me because it’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/963 "2015-05-27T18:14:21Z")
Are you denying the validity of the Quran and the hadith? I hear you can get executed for that in certain non-bigoted, Islamophobia-free societies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/964 "2015-05-27T18:15:54Z")
If I want to learn about Islam, and what Muslims believe, I’ll talk to Muslims. Most of the Muslims I’ve spoken to do not believe what **Haberdash** thinks they believe, so I’m forced to believe that maybe **Haberdash** is wrong about what many Muslims believe. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/965 "2015-05-27T18:17:54Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Are you denying the validity of the Quran and the hadith? I’m denying that you know anything about what the Qur’an says, much less what the various _hadith_ say (and the status of those _hadith_ among Muslims). ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/966 "2015-05-27T18:21:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If I want to learn about Islam, and what Muslims believe, I’ll talk to Muslims. Most of the Muslims I’ve spoken to do not believe what **Haberdash** thinks they believe, so I’m forced to believe that maybe **Haberdash** is wrong about what many Muslims believe. I’m sure the adolescent sex slaves that populate every Muslim society are proud to hear that they don’t really exist according to some guy on the Internet. Another problem solved by progressives! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/967 "2015-05-27T18:22:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If I want to learn about Islam, and what Muslims believe, I’ll talk to Muslims. Most of the Muslims I’ve spoken to do not believe what **Haberdash** thinks they believe, so I’m forced to believe that maybe **Haberdash** is wrong about what many Muslims believe. Wait, talk to muslims? But, but…that’s dangerous. Don’t you know they’d just as soon kill you as look at you? ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/968 "2015-05-27T18:23:05Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > I’m denying that you know anything about what the Qur’an says, much less what the various _hadith_ say (and the status of those _hadith_ among Muslims). By the way, suggesting that Shiites/Iranians have a valid interpretation of Islam is **also** a good way to get burned alive in the average Muslim community. So you should be careful with the “but this group lets you depict Muhammad” links. (I know that the list of things that Muslims will lynch a person for is very long and hard to remember, so I’m trying to help out if you forget one.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/969 "2015-05-27T18:24:08Z")
Note, by the way, that many pre-modern Western cultures endorsed marital bonds between male adults and female children, in addition to the classical Greek custom of the _paiderastia_ between adult men and adolescent boys. Girls in ancient Athens could be betrothed to adult husbands when they were as young as five, for instance, and a Roman bride might be betrothed at seven or eight, as long as she was old enough to understand the ceremony. There was no stigma against an adult male engaging himself in this way to a girl young enough to be his daughter or granddaughter. Of course, in pre-modern societies the official celebration and sexual consummation of such a marriage was generally delayed until the child showed physical signs of entering puberty. As far as we can tell, that was the case with the marriage of Muhammad and his youngest wife as well. There is certainly no reason to think that any ancient or medieval society, including Muhammad’s Arabia of the seventh century, would have officially accepted or approved of a marital sexual relationship between an adult man and a girl too young to reproduce. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/970 "2015-05-27T18:27:13Z")
I see that **Haberdash** ’s brain is so addled by his bigotry that he not only doesn’t care one bit about the prevalence of underage sex worker trafficking around the world (not just in “Muslim society”), he also doesn’t think that Iranians/Shiites count as Muslims. It’s like some kind of hate-Alzheimers. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/971 "2015-05-27T18:29:00Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > I’m sure the adolescent sex slaves that populate every Muslim society are proud to hear that they don’t really exist according to some guy on the Internet. Another problem solved by progressives! Dearborn has adolescent sex slaves (or at least more than similarly sized American cities)? In short, _I don’t believe you_. I think you’re a bigoted bullshitter who has no interest in what real world Muslims do and believe, and are only interested in evidence that confirms your entrenched and bigoted view of them. I’ve interacted with lots of Muslims, mainly in the US and in Bahrain (I spent time there while in the Navy), and most of them were decent people. I have little doubt that there are lots of Muslims who do bad things, including abusing women. But there are also lots of Muslims who don’t do bad things, and who don’t abuse women. Some Muslims are bad. Most are decent people who treat people decently, for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/972 "2015-05-27T18:33:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Note, by the way, that many pre-modern Western cultures endorsed marital bonds between male adults and female children, in addition to the classical Greek custom of the _paiderastia_ between adult men and adolescent boys. Girls in ancient Athens could be betrothed to adult husbands when they were as young as five, for instance, and a Roman bride might be betrothed at seven or eight, as long as she was old enough to understand the ceremony. There was no stigma against an adult male engaging himself in this way to a girl young enough to be his daughter or granddaughter. There was no stigma against raping slaves of all ages, either. This is something Islam has in common with ancient Europe. > [@](#): > > There is certainly no reason to think that any ancient or medieval society, including Muhammad’s Arabia of the seventh century, would have officially accepted or approved of a marital sexual relationship between an adult man and a girl too young to reproduce. It goes out of its way to say that the sex took place. \*\*“He married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.” \*\* That’s the verse. Now, you’re free to reject the hadith as a reliable historical source. The problem is, Muslims are not free to do this. Either their scriptures are false, or their #1 favorite guy raped a nine-year-old. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/973 "2015-05-27T18:35:46Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The problem is, Muslims are not free to do this. I don’t believe that you know what Muslims are free or not free to do. There are many Muslims who are free to believe and speak out their belief on any number of variations. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/974 "2015-05-27T18:38:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Note, by the way, that many pre-modern Western cultures endorsed marital bonds between male adults and female children, in addition to the classical Greek custom of the _paiderastia_ between adult men and adolescent boys. Girls in ancient Athens could be betrothed to adult husbands when they were as young as five, for instance, and a Roman bride might be betrothed at seven or eight, as long as she was old enough to understand the ceremony. There was no stigma against an adult male engaging himself in this way to a girl young enough to be his daughter or granddaughter. > > Of course, in pre-modern societies the official celebration and sexual consummation of such a marriage was generally delayed until the child showed physical signs of entering puberty. As far as we can tell, that was the case with the marriage of Muhammad and his youngest wife as well. > > There is certainly no reason to think that any ancient or medieval society, including Muhammad’s Arabia of the seventh century, would have officially accepted or approved of a marital sexual relationship between an adult man and a girl too young to reproduce. There has [always been controversy even among Sunni Muslims as to the age of ‘Ā’isha](http://sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?item.997.41), and the Shias (who consider her to have been a scheming, conniving woman due to her role in the first _fitnah_) certainly think she was plenty mature at the time of her marriage. Of Muhmmad’s other wives, incidentally, more than half were middle-aged women above the age of 30 (including his first and most-beloved wife, Khadija), and most of them were widows. The other wives were 20 (also a widow, her husband being a Muslim who had been killed in battle against the polytheists of Mecca), 29 (likewise a Muslim war widow), 20, and 17. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/975 "2015-05-27T18:40:37Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > That’s the verse. Now, you’re free to reject the hadith as a reliable historical source. The problem is, Muslims are not free to do this. Either their scriptures are false, or their #1 favorite guy raped a nine-year-old. Or you have no idea how _hadith_ work. Which there is no excuse for, since I recommended quite a few books about how they _do_ work, and you’ve had plenty of time and opportunity to educate yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/976 "2015-05-27T18:42:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe that you know what Muslims are free or not free to do. There are many Muslims who are free to believe and speak out their belief on any number of variations. If your point is that Muslims feel entitled to ignore their scriptures when it’s embarrassing or inconvenient to acknowledge them, but still demand that the rest of the world comply with the parts they like or else be massacred, then yes, I agree with you. The book says she was nine when Muhammad fucked her the first time. Maybe she wasn’t. Maybe she never existed at all. But if you accept the validity of the book, it’s spelled out in very clear language. If you don’t accept the validity of the book, then maybe chill out and stop murdering other people for questioning the book. Gotta pick one. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/977 "2015-05-27T18:43:36Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > If your point is that Muslims feel entitled to ignore their scriptures when it’s embarrassing or inconvenient to acknowledge them, but still demand that the rest of the world comply with the parts they like or else be massacred, then yes, I agree with you. > > The book says she was nine when Muhammad fucked her the first time. Maybe she wasn’t. Maybe she never existed at all. But if you accept the validity of the book, it’s spelled out in very clear language. If you don’t accept the validity of the book, then maybe chill out and stop murdering other people for questioning the book. Gotta pick one. What “book” would that be, **Haberdash**? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/978 "2015-05-27T18:45:19Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > I admit it – I hate pedophiles and I’m bigoted against rapists. How weird that it seems to be only allegations of _Muslim_ historical figures engaging in such practices that gets you upset. The fact that the [renowned medieval Jewish scholar and jurist Maimonides in the twelfth century endorsed the biblical acceptance of soldiers raping female captives](https://books.google.com/books?id=7qX0m-nnoe0C&pg=PA132&lpg=PA132&dq=Maimonides+cohabit+captive+woman&source=bl&ots=4zUBILMLk2&sig=FubWt1u9SUdbeTJEYpMkh6n_dfI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xA1mVaXZA86ZyAS-zoDIDg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Maimonides%20cohabit%20captive%20woman&f=false) doesn’t send you into spasms of hatred against Judaism in general. Patristic Christian authorities in late antiquity were promulgating religious rules all over the place permitting adult men to become betrothed to prepubescent girls and have sex with them as soon as they showed signs of puberty, but that doesn’t seem to you like a terrible indictment of Christianity as a religion of pedophile-enablers. In short, **Haberdash** , your self-righteousness about what you perceive as the uniquely immoral nature of Islam is merely the combination of your own ignorance, bigotry and hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/979 "2015-05-27T18:48:16Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The book says she was nine when Muhammad fucked her the first time. Maybe she wasn’t. Maybe she never existed at all. But if you accept the validity of the book, it’s spelled out in very clear language. If you don’t accept the validity of the book, then maybe chill out and stop murdering other people for questioning the book. Gotta pick one. This book is a hadith, not the Quran, and disputed by various sects within Islam. There is significant disagreement among Muslims as to the age of Aisha at marriage and consummation. So not all Muslims accept the validity of this book, nor do all accept this interpretation of Aisha’s age. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/980 "2015-05-27T18:56:07Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > I see that **Haberdash** ’s brain is so addled by his bigotry that he not only doesn’t care one bit about the prevalence of underage sex worker trafficking around the world (not just in “Muslim society”), The difference between “Islam” and “underage sex trafficking” is academic in some respects. It’s also worth nothing that the “Islamophobia” shrieks were used to impede an investigation into one of the biggest pedophile rings in British history: > **[Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal)** > > The Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal consists of the organised child sexual abuse that occurred in the town of Rotherham, South Yorkshire, Northern England, from the late 1980s until 2013 and the failure of local authorities to act on reports of the abuse throughout most of that period. Researcher Angie Heal, who was hired by local officials and warned them about child exploitation occurring between 2002 and 2007, has since described it as the "biggest child protection scandal i The... The exact same apologism on display in this thread – you must accept our practices because it’s our culture, whatabout-this-thing-someone-else-did, you’re only concerned about this because you’re a bigot – was used for decades to stonewall efforts at controlling the Muslims of Rotherham as they raped children at a compulsive rate. There’s two types of people gleefully endorsing the same tactics in this thread – those who know that it’s all a big scam to protect pedophiles, and those that are too stupid to see it. > [@](#): > > he also doesn’t think that Iranians/Shiites count as Muslims. Not me, but rather the billion or so Sunnis in the world. You want it both ways – fringe beliefs of minority groups are touted as examples of what Islam “really is” (while of course ignoring everything backwards and evil about Iran) but the fact that those minority groups are regularly massacred for being heretics somehow can’t be relevant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=50)