# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1001 "2015-05-27T19:59:04Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Dearborn Muslims do have occasional problems with [arresting people for advocating non-Muslim religions](http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/22177220/dearborn-settles-with-christian-missionaries-arrested-at-arab-festival) These Christians are part of a group that routinely harassed people at the Arab Festival (which is why they were arrested). And they not only targeted Muslims, but [Catholics as well](http://www.freep.com/article/20110619/NEWS02/110619004/Christian-missionaries-take-Muslims-Catholics-Arab-International-Festival?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE). > [@](#): > > and on one occasion even [stoning them](http://www.clarionproject.org/news/american-muslims-stone-christians-dearborn-michigan) (must be a cultural thing) but in the big picture, we can all agree that Dearborn is, most of the time, a model for how more Muslims should be. Too bad the Clarion Project are [a bunch of Muslim-hating liars](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christandpopculture/2013/05/muslims-stoning-christians-in-michigan-not-quite-updated/) (which is probably why you cite them): > [@](#): > > 1. The United West video (see here) and many of the reports on this incident either claim or insinuate that the police did nothing to stop the kids from throwing trash at Ruben and his friends. > > However, in the unedited video, you can see the police intervene once, twice (note the police dragging a kid off at this point—something none of the articles mention), thrice, fourse [sic] (note that this appears to be another arrest or citation? Again, never mentioned in any of the reports I listed), and I’m not going to bother looking for more examples. > > Bottom line: The video lies/misrepresents the truth and each of these reports, either in ignorance (in which case they are examples of bad journalism) or knowingly repeats this lie or fails to challenge it (in the case of The Blaze). > > 1. Muslim adults repeatedly work to calm down and stop the kids from yelling and throwing trash. In fact, one, an apparently Muslim man stands in front of the Christians, protecting them from the angry crowd. Does this mean Islam is a religion of peace? Nope, it just means that this man (as well as many others in the video) wanted to prevent violence from happening. Does the fact that the “mob” of kids threw trash and possibly a piece of concrete mean that Islam is a religion of violence? Nope, it just means that some kids got offended and angry. > > […] > > 1. Nine days before they posted their very popular article describing the “alleged” “stoning” of Christians, The Blaze published this account of the incident: SCREAMING ANTI-ISLAM PROTESTERS TAUNT MUSLIMS WITH PIG’S HEAD: ‘YOU’RE GOING TO MELT IN THE FIRES OF HELL!’ In this article, by Billy Hallowell, we read that “authorities in Wayne County attempted to keep calm and order between the two parties, as they tried to separate them—a difficult task considering the religious nature of the fighting at hand.” What they were throwing was water bottles, incidentally. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1002 "2015-05-27T19:59:20Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Yup, anyone who claims to oppose child rape is just one of those “Islamophobes” grasping at straws. No, not “anyone”, just you personally. I’m well aware that **most** people who claim to oppose child rape (including myself) are sincere in maintaining that it’s a serious crime and a barbarous act of violence. But when the **particular** child rape that somebody’s getting loudly and ostentatiously upset over is a historically unclear account of a marital relationship fourteen centuries ago that was considered normal by the standards of all contemporary societies? Yeah, that person is indeed just an Islamophobe grasping at straws. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1003 "2015-05-27T19:59:23Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > I see that **Haberdash** ’s brain is so addled by his bigotry that he not only doesn’t care one bit about the prevalence of underage sex worker trafficking around the world (not just in “Muslim society”), he also doesn’t think that Iranians/Shiites count as Muslims. > > It’s like some kind of hate-Alzheimers. It’s more like Schrödinger’s Hatred. He’s more than happy to point his finger at this or that news story from Iran (or from Shi’a groups) as proof that Islam is The Badds because they’re Muslims. But they cease being Muslims when it’s inconvenient that they be. He can’t know whether Iranians are Muslim or not until he opens the news story to look at the cat :p. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1004 "2015-05-27T20:00:10Z")
One problem with “tolerance” is that it sometimes has to make an either-or choice. Say you want to be religiously tolerant. You also want to promote acceptance of LGBT people. So what do you do when you encounter a religion that promotes violence against LGBT people? You have to make a choice; can’t be tolerant of both. (I’m not referring to Islam specifically, but a hypothetical religion.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1005 "2015-05-27T20:00:57Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > I see that **Haberdash** ’s brain is so addled by his bigotry that he not only doesn’t care one bit about the prevalence of underage sex worker trafficking around the world (not just in “Muslim society”), he also doesn’t think that Iranians/Shiites count as Muslims. > > It’s like some kind of hate-Alzheimers. It’s more like Schrödinger’s Hatred. He’s more than happy to point his finger at this or that appalling news story from Iran (or from Shi’a groups) as proof that Islam is The Badds because they’re Muslims. But they cease being Muslims when it’s inconvenient that they be. He can’t know whether Iranians are Muslim or not until he opens the news story to look at the cat :p. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1006 "2015-05-27T20:03:26Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Oh well, if the police officers accused of ignoring their duties and letting rapists take over the town _deny_ it, then I guess that settles things. No, what settles things is the fact that an independent investigation found no evidence that concerns about the ethnic origins of the perpetrators or fears of being thought racist were behind the police inaction, but instead it was because the police didn’t actually seem to care about what happened to children from poor and broken homes. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1007 "2015-05-27T20:07:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > One problem with “tolerance” is that it sometimes has to make an either-or choice. > > Say you want to be religiously tolerant. You also want to promote acceptance of LGBT people. > > So what do you do when you encounter a religion that promotes violence against LGBT people? You have to make a choice; can’t be tolerant of both. (I’m not referring to Islam specifically, but a hypothetical religion.) Sure you can. Take, for example, Christianity - there are many Christians who are intolerant of LGBT people. But there are also many who embrace LGBT people, and many LBGT people who are themselves Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1008 "2015-05-27T20:13:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > One problem with “tolerance” is that it sometimes has to make an either-or choice. > > Say you want to be religiously tolerant. You also want to promote acceptance of LGBT people. > > So what do you do when you encounter a religion that promotes violence against LGBT people? You have to make a choice; can’t be tolerant of both. Well, that’s when you vigorously endorse the interpretations of the religion in question that **don’t** promote violence against LGBT people. Say you’ve got the High Priest of the Bigendian Mother Church proclaiming _“Teh gayz are just awful! Anybody who tolerates teh gayz is guilty of Littleendian heresy!”_ And you’ve got your rival group, the Swedenborg-Synod Bigendians, proclaiming _“We think teh gayz r ok and we’re just as good Bigendians as anyone else!”_ That, my friends, is your opportunity to stand in solidarity with the Swedenborg-Synod Bigendians: invite them to your clergy exchange program, donate to their LGBT Bigendian Safe Space shelter program to help care for LGBT people who are fleeing oppression by the Bigendian Mother Church, whatever. That’s how you practice tolerance in such a way as to _encourage_ tolerance. Which is why it chaps my hide so bad to see Radical-Mullah Cheer Squad members like **Haberdash** falling all over themselves to _ **AGREE** _ with the hateful violent-extremist Islamists that their oppressive fundamentalist interpretation of Islam is the correct one. Dumbshits don’t even realize which side they’re actually fighting on. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1009 "2015-05-27T20:18:46Z")
I’m all for people adopting the Muslim equivalent of “we go to church on Easter to please grandma and paper over our serviceable American liberalism with platitudes about ‘what Jesus really said’ because that’s easier than being an atheist” attitude that has fruitfully displaced Christianity in so much of the civilized world. It doesn’t do much good to spell it out, though – the way to make modernity appealing is to spread modernity. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1010 "2015-05-27T20:28:40Z")
The main part of the Detroit Free Press article I linked above isn’t available at that link, but [here’s the full version](https://anamericanpointofview.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/christian-missionaries-take-on-muslims-catholics-at-arab-international-festival/): > [@](#): > > Quran-burning Pastor Terry Jones canceled plans to speak against Islam at the Arab Festival after a crowd of protesters blocked him, but other Christian missionaries attended. One of them called themselves the Bible believers and railed against Arabs, Muslims, and Islam, through a bullhorn. They held up a sign calling Islam’s prophet a “pervert.” > > And on Saturday, they insulted Catholics too, holding up a large sign that read Catholics are “idolaters … Bible rejecters…and worshippers of wafer god,” according to a photo taken by Haroon Mihtarand posted on Twitter. > > “No Catholics go to Heaven,” the sign read. > > Saturday’s attacks against Muslims and Catholics came after Friday’s rally by Jones at Dearborn City Hall, where speakers railed against both Muslims and African-Americans. One supporter of Jones, Rabbi Nachum Shifren of California, assailed Muslims and black people during his talk on the steps of City Hall. Jones and his supporters have also attacked gays and lesbians in their talks. Last month, Jones led a rally in Texas against what he said in a news release were three evils confronting America. “Homosexuality, Abortion, and Islam.” > > Christian missionaries have attended the Arab Festival for many years, but over the past two years, some of them have become more confrontational, said organizers. Two years ago, a group called Acts 17 that attended the festival produced a video of them getting into a dispute at the festival that has drawn more than 2 million views. Some Christians say the video shows that Islamic law, sharia, has taken hold in Dearborn; but city officials and local church leaders say it was selectively edited to defame Dearborn. > > The co-leaders of Acts 17 say Islam is a false religion that is inherently violent. Last year at the festival, some of its members were arrested; a jury later acquited them of charges they were breaching the peace, but one was found guilty of failing to obey a police officer. Compare that to **Haberdash** ’s description of what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1011 "2015-05-27T20:29:53Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > I’m all for people adopting the Muslim equivalent of “we go to church on Easter to please grandma and paper over our serviceable American liberalism with platitudes about ‘what Jesus really said’ because that’s easier than being an atheist” attitude If you really meant that, you wouldn’t spend so much time and energy insisting that liberal tolerance is fundamentally incompatible with Islam because “the book says so”. You’re not fooling us, cupcake: what you’re in this game for is not to promote liberal attitudes within Islam, but rather to enjoy hating and despising Islam on the pretext that it **can’t** absorb liberal attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1012 "2015-05-27T20:30:32Z")
Do obnoxious proselytizers not have a right to free speech? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1013 "2015-05-27T20:35:39Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Do obnoxious proselytizers not have a right to free speech? [http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/disturbing-the-peace.html](http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/disturbing-the-peace.html) ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1014 "2015-05-27T20:47:38Z")
Of which they were acquitted, since it’s obvious that it was an inapplicable charge. You can’t disturb the tranquility of a parade. They were arrested for advocating Christianity in Dearborn in an obnoxious way. Which is exactly the sort of thing the First Amendment protects. It’s funny how you keep finding things that don’t fall under the umbrella of “free speech” while claiming to be such a fan of it. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1015 "2015-05-27T20:56:14Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Of which they were acquitted, since it’s obvious that it was an inapplicable charge. You can’t disturb the tranquility of a parade. The Arab Festival isn’t a parade. And one of them was found guilty of refusing to obey a police officer. And when the Muslim, Catholic, African American, and Mormon-hating Christians were disruptive again in 2012, they were told to leave or be ticketed for disturbing the peace. They also sued, but they lost, appealed, and [lost again](http://archive.freep.com/article/20140827/NEWS02/308270186/dearborn-arab-festival-christianity), the court writing, “The video from the 2012 festival demonstrates that (evangelists’) speech and conduct intended to incite the crowd to turn violent. … Although robustly guarded by the First Amendment, religious conduct remains subject to regulation for the protection of society,” > [@](#): > > It’s funny how you keep finding things that don’t fall under the umbrella of “free speech” while claiming to be such a fan of it. It’s funny how you’re constantly wrong about, well, pretty much everything. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1016 "2015-05-27T21:01:42Z")
> [@](#): > > But Judge Eric Clay wrote an 11-page dissent, saying authorities had illegally exercised a “heckler’s veto” when they threatened to ticket Bible Believers. He noted that the court’s decision will serve as a precedent in other free-speech disputes. > > “The First Amendment protects plaintiffs’ speech, however bilious it was,” he said. “The majority … provides a blueprint for the next police force that wants to silence speech without having to go through the burdensome process of law enforcement. I expect we will see this case again.” Big surprise which side of that ruling you fall on. Big. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1017 "2015-05-27T21:06:42Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Big surprise which side of that ruling you fall on. Big. Yes, the one that’s legally binding. Has your Muslim-hate expanded into a hate for the rule of law now, too? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1018 "2015-05-27T21:10:38Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Do obnoxious proselytizers not have a right to free speech? Is that question addressed to me? Of course obnoxious proselytizers have a right to free speech. What you don’t have a right to is immunity from other people calling you out on your bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1019 "2015-05-27T23:10:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Is that question addressed to me? Of course obnoxious proselytizers have a right to free speech. What you don’t have a right to is immunity from other people calling you out on your bullshit. No no no no NO ! Free speech means you \*\*must \*\*agree with all speech. And support it. And materially help speech being broadcast far and wide. And crush whoever disagrees with said speech, burn their children, rape their homes and enjoy the lamentations of their women. Anything less makes you an islamofascistophile. Err, unless of course whoever made whatever speech was a Muslim. Then the rules are mirrored, for self-evident reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1020 "2015-05-27T23:15:34Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Islamic scriptures are a contradictory mess that can’t possibly be true, you say? > > I agree. Now let’s see which societies we can repeat that claim in without being decapitated. Every single Muslim society, even the most extreme. You really have no idea what the Hadith are do you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=52)