# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1021 "2015-05-28T00:04:10Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Most American Muslims, especially those in communities that formed prior to the rise of Islamism like Dearborn, are pretty reasonable. They came here because they looked at the backwardness of the Islamic world and said they’d prefer to live in the superior American culture, after all. > > Dearborn Muslims do have occasional problems with [arresting people for advocating non-Muslim religions](http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/22177220/dearborn-settles-with-christian-missionaries-arrested-at-arab-festival) and on one occasion even [stoning them](http://www.clarionproject.org/news/american-muslims-stone-christians-dearborn-michigan) (must be a cultural thing) but in the big picture, we can all agree that Dearborn is, most of the time, a model for how more Muslims should be. So you admit liberal use of exaggeration and hyperbole? That not all Muslims, in fact, behave in the ways you ascribe to them? ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1022 "2015-05-28T00:10:27Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No no no no NO ! Free speech means you \*\*must \*\*agree with all speech. And support it. And materially help speech being broadcast far and wide. And crush whoever disagrees with said speech, burn their children, rape their homes and enjoy the lamentations of their women. > Anything less makes you an islamofascistophile. > > Err, unless of course whoever made whatever speech was a Muslim. Then the rules are mirrored, for self-evident reasons. Well, no, but I think it does mean that Christians can go to Dearborn and stand on the corner and say that non-Christians are going to hell or whatever, and shoudn’t be arrested for it. Some people in this thread seem to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1023 "2015-05-28T00:11:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you admit liberal use of exaggeration and hyperbole? That not all Muslims, in fact, behave in the ways you ascribe to them? Not all people living in Muslim societies are sincere believers in Islam. I would expect that, among women and among American Muslims, it’s not even close to a majority. True believers are the problem. Maximizing the power of the nonbelievers, in other words, an Enlightenment, is the goal. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1024 "2015-05-28T00:19:48Z")
I don’t know that trekking to a place specifically to try and rile up or antagonize the locals particularly needs to be defended. Or do you reckon John McClane standing on a Harlem corner wearing a sign saying “I HATE NIGGERS” constitues Holy Free Speech wot oughta be protected at all costs ? Are you, in fact, in favour of the “I’m not touching yoouuuu” rule of free speech ? ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1025 "2015-05-28T00:22:54Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t know that trekking to a place specifically to try and rile up or antagonize the locals particularly needs to be defended. Or do you reckon John McClane standing on a Harlem corner wearing a sign saying “I HATE NIGGERS” constitues Holy Free Speech wot oughta be protected at all costs ? Are you, in fact, in favour of the “I’m not touching yoouuuu” rule of free speech ? So this would be the anti-free speech argument that you claimed not to be making? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1026 "2015-05-28T00:27:18Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Not all people living in Muslim societies are sincere believers in Islam. I would expect that, among women and among American Muslims, it’s not even close to a majority. > > True believers are the problem. Maximizing the power of the nonbelievers, in other words, an Enlightenment, is the goal. I don’t believe that you get to define or actually understand who the “true believers” are. Plenty of peaceful and liberal Muslims consider themselves “true believers”, as do plenty of violent fanatics and rapists. I don’t believe that your judgment about the “true” way to be Muslim is better than theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1027 "2015-05-28T00:33:09Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > So this would be the anti-free speech argument that you claimed not to be making? I wot ? Quote please ? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1028 "2015-05-28T01:55:55Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Well, no, but I think it does mean that Christians can go to Dearborn and stand on the corner and say that non-Christians are going to hell or whatever, and shoudn’t be arrested for it. Some people in this thread seem to disagree. They _can_ do that, [all they want](http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2012/10/terry_jones_anti-islam_rally_i.html). > [@](#): > > Outside Dearborn’s Edsel Ford High School, police from multiple departments were ready in case of a clash. They had nothing to worry about. > > Terry Jones, a Florida pastor who gained international notoriety for his 2010 plan to publicly burn the Qur’an, an Islamic holy book, staged a protest in front of the high school Wednesday. > > […] > > Students didn’t heed the beckoning, where out front Jones and just over a dozen supporters carried signs, including one that read, “Islam, the new Naziism.” > > The plan to draw students from the school in protest didn’t succeed, according to David Mustonen, communication coordinator for Dearborn Public School. > > It was “uneventful,” Mustonen said. “There were more media people surrounding him than there were people protesting.” What the authorities have a problem with is angry, aggressive groups of people who get in the faces of attendees at street festivals, disrupting things by waving pig’s heads and screaming at them about how Muslims worship a pedophile, how Catholics are going to hell, and how evil black people are. That you apparently can’t tell the difference between those two things is entirely unsurprising. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1029 "2015-05-28T03:19:05Z")
Sounds like they’re punching down. We all know what happens to people who do that. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1030 "2015-05-28T08:51:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe that you get to define or actually understand who the “true believers” are. Plenty of peaceful and liberal Muslims consider themselves “true believers”, as do plenty of violent fanatics and rapists. I don’t believe that your judgment about the “true” way to be Muslim is better than theirs. Of course. For the hateful bigot of course he must believe in the extreme dichotomy. So it is necessary to invent. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1031 "2015-05-28T08:58:02Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > That you apparently can’t tell the difference between those two things is entirely unsurprising. Of course not. The only importance is the group he hates blindly. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1032 "2015-05-28T09:13:02Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > Ya, definitely hindu-supremacist Yes definately despite your lies, which we can believe no more than your pretending early on not to know about the slurs you used and your hiding in calling AK ‘brother.’ the fact you parrot the lines of the supramacist genocidaires and make excuses and lies about inconvenient oppressive behavior of the hindu supramacists (like the claiming of made up news stories), it tells us enough. > [@truthSeeker2](#): > > That divisive cancer that is Islam seems to have plagued regions where one least expects for it to have a presence ([Philippines](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_insurgency_in_the_Philippines) [Thailand](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency) or [China](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turkestan_independence_movement)). Of course it is a fine example of bigotry ascribing to religion what is in fact the regional and ethnic. Let us take the China as the example of how the religious bigot extremism distorts their mindsets. For the China there are the Han muslim Hui and … it is strange their Islam is not a problem. But they are Han. But the Ouigour are not Han, their lands traditionally not part of the China and they resent - just like the Tibetans - the colonization of their lands by the Han under the Han promoting Peoples Republic, the discrimination against them in work and in particular in having control over their own historical lands. Only the gross bigot can overlook this. But of course by this standard, it must be the Budhdhism is a “cancer” … (it is of course nonsense and stupid). ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1033 "2015-05-28T10:21:41Z")
One of the definitions of bigotry that I’ve used on this board is hating an entire group of people for the acts of some members of that group. Now, not all bigotry has to do this. You could hate for other reasons. But it’s such a common form of bigotry that I think it’s a good first order approximation. And it’s very, very relevant to this. Certain people in this thread have made it very clear that they hate Muslims. That is bigotry, and noting of value can come from this premise. You will always be able to find ways to justify your bigotry. The question is, can you come up with reasons to stop? Because as long as you make all these bad things about Muslims, you cannot stop them. Any more than you can stop crime by treating all black people as criminals. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1034 "2015-05-28T12:05:19Z")
I always always try to differentiate between Islam(which is a cancer for modern world) and Muslims as human beings. I am also happy to acknowledge the different good parts in Islam. Yet all that apologists for Islam will do is to label you a bigot or a supremacist - > [@truthSeeker2](#): > > I don’t think so. Islam doesn’t promote integration or assimilation. Hate and intolerance are an integral part of Islam. Will give you more instances - > > - India was divided because of the Arabic religion. Vast majority of Muslims of south asia have Hindu forefathers. > - Kashmir today is the only Muslim majority state in India and has a separatist movement ongoing. (3 soldiers and 1 civilian killed in last 2 days, and this is very common throughout the year. Over 100k Hindus and Sikhs have been chased out of Kashmir valley in 1990’s) > - Several hundreds of Muslim-Hindu communal incidents in India every year to this date. > - Vast majority of killings in the name of religion have been Islam related. Al Qaeda, Taliban, Isis, Boko Haram, Al Shabaab, Lashkar-e-Toiba etc are Islamic terror organizations. > - Intolerance levels on average are the greatest in Muslims among all religious groups - blasphemy(Bangladesh bloggers, French cartoonists etc), apostasy etc. > > **Muslims happen to be born into Islam. They are like any other human beings. If any injustice happens to a Muslim or a Non-Muslim, my actions or feelings against that is going to be the same, irrespective of religion. Its the Islam which is a cancer.** > [@truthSeeker2](#): > > \*\*Ya, definitely hindu-supremacist when i dont even call myself a hindu (tend to see myself as ‘spiritual but not religious’, haven’t visited a temple in like 5 yrs. Visiting a temple is also cool of course.) I am irrelevant anyhow. > > BTW copied frm someplace, the following is stated in a hadith, “He who knows himself knows his Lord.” A prominent Islamic philosopher says: “O man who considers himself a human! Read self…” In this sense, one has to try to get to know himself. Starting from ourselves, we are going to reach Him! > > So plenty of good stuff in Islam too like in other religions. But overall it preaches hate and intolerance which is reflected in real world.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1035 "2015-05-28T14:23:16Z")
> [@truthSeeker](#): > > Several hundreds of Muslim-Hindu communal incidents in India every year to this date. The majority of which involve Hindus attacking and killing Muslims. Clearly, Hinduism is a cancer on the modern world. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1036 "2015-05-28T14:44:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The majority of which involve Hindus attacking and killing Muslims. Clearly, Hinduism is a cancer on the modern world. Those are all made up by the Hindu-hating Hindu media, though! ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1037 "2015-05-28T16:35:21Z")
Meanwhile, in the original subject of this thread, Muslims in Bangladesh continue to fight back against dastardly down-punching racists. [Bangladeshi blogger named on hitlist warned: ‘You will be next’](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/28/bangladeshi-blogger-ananya-azad-named-hitlist) > [@](#): > > Ananya Azad is no stranger to assassination attempts. The prominent Bangladeshi blogger’s father, Humayun Azad, wrote a scathing critique of Islamist fundamentalism in 2003 entitled Pak Sar Jamin Sad Bad (Blessed Be the Sacred Land, the title of Pakistan’s national anthem). A year after it was published, Humayan was seriously injured in a street attack by assailants wielding machetes. > > Now, it is his son’s turn to fear the outside world. Ananya followed in his father’s footsteps to become a writer critical of intolerance and religious fundamentalism, a career that has landed him on a hitlist containing the names of 84 atheist bloggers. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1038 "2015-05-28T16:38:15Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Certain people in this thread have made it very clear that they hate Muslims. That is bigotry, and noting of value can come from this premise. You will always be able to find ways to justify your bigotry. The question is, can you come up with reasons to stop? The culture of perpetual, immutable victimhood among Muslims is a major reason why Islamic cultures do not progress. If a car doesn’t start in Lahore, it’s a Zionist plot. If anyone says that you shouldn’t murder people over a cartoon, it’s “Islamophobia.” Writing off statements like “don’t rape children,” “don’t kill people,” and “allow women to leave their houses” as categorical “bigotry” is playing right into this narrative. There are a billion Muslims in the world. The vast majority of them will never even meet a non-Muslim, let alone be victimized by one. At some point, Muslims need to grow up and start doing something about their own circumstances instead of sitting around caterwauling about the invisible “bigots” watching them shower. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1039 "2015-05-28T16:43:06Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Meanwhile, in the original subject of this thread, Muslims in Bangladesh continue to fight back against dastardly down-punching racists. Nobody has ever suggested that Bangladeshi atheist writers criticizing radical-extremist political Islam in Bangladesh are “punching down”. When you can’t even come close to making a point except by drastically distorting the facts you’re talking about, that’s a good indication that your point isn’t worth making. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1040 "2015-05-28T16:46:34Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The culture of perpetual, immutable victimhood among Muslims is a major reason why Islamic cultures do not progress. […] At some point, Muslims need to grow up and start doing something about their own circumstances instead of sitting around caterwauling about the invisible “bigots” watching them shower. Ah, so you’re just trying to do Muslims a favor by giving them some **actual** bigotry to deal with instead of all the allegedly imaginary bigotry that they’re inexplicably fixated on. That’s bound to work just about as well as “Stop crying or I’ll give you something to cry about!” generally does. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=53)