# The Fallen Blogger and the Spectre of Secularism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827 "2015-02-28T03:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1041 "2015-05-28T16:51:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nobody has ever suggested that Bangladeshi atheist writers criticizing radical-extremist political Islam in Bangladesh are “punching down”. Garry Trudeau, Teju Cole, Gawker, Salon, the entire progressosphere online, their devotees here… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1042 "2015-05-28T17:00:33Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > […] Teju Cole […] Wow, **Haberdash** , that’s a new low in factual distortion even for you. Allow me to remind you for the third or fourth time that [it was Teju Cole himself](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18393409&postcount=930) who brought up Avijit Roy as an example of a courageous proponent of free speech who deserves to be honored. Your other accusations are equally bullshit. _Nobody on the liberal/left progressive side is saying that Bangladeshi atheist bloggers are “punching down” by criticizing radical-extremist political Islam in Bangladesh._ If you’re going to persist in denying that fact, let’s see your cites in evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1043 "2015-05-28T17:13:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Wow, **Haberdash** , that’s a new low in factual distortion even for you. Allow me to remind you for the third or fourth time that [it was Teju Cole himself](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18393409&postcount=930) who brought up Avijit Roy as an example of a courageous proponent of free speech who deserves to be honored. No, it was Teju Cole who started the “you shouldn’t kill people, unless…” meme with a column that was published so quickly after the Charlie Hebdo attack that he must have literally started writing it while the Jews in the supermarket were still being held hostage: > **[Unmournable Bodies](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/unmournable-bodies)** > > It is possible to defend the right to obscene and racist speech without promoting or sponsoring the content of that speech. As we have thoroughly established in this thread, he brought up Roy only as a bullshit pretext for why he opposed honoring Charlie Hebdo, and, despite having 73 days to do so and six major magazine columns at his disposal, has not seen fit to write a single word actually praising or discussing Roy. So no, he apparently does not think Roy is a “courageous proponent of free speech who deserves to be honored.” Teju Cole stands for one thing in this debate, which is the same thing that you think other people are stupid enough to not understand – he stands for the same thing that “punching down” and “I support free speech, but…” and “no Islamophobia” stand for – the one and only thing that left-wingers have been clearly broadcasting since January: _Behead those who insult Islam._ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1044 "2015-05-28T17:16:54Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Muslims in Bangladesh continue to fight back against dastardly down-punching racists What you actually mean, of course, is that violent terrorist radical Islamists in Bangladesh continue to attack and threaten atheists, liberal/secular Muslims, Hindus, and other advocates of secularism and freethinking involved with the [Mukto-Mona Writers’ Corner](http://enblog.mukto-mona.com) (a laudable example of literary activism that I encourage other free-speech advocates to read and support). But of course, **Haberdash** , you would never describe the situation in that factually accurate form, because it would deprive you of the opportunity to accuse _Muslims in general_ of committing these acts of violence and intimidation. As I’ve noted earlier, it is all too clear that you don’t give a single solitary shit about any victims of violence and intimidation except insofar as their suffering allows you to get away with talking shit about _Muslims in general_. If you had to choose between (a) condemning _only the actual perpetrators_ of Islamist-extremist violence and oppression or (b) passing over such violence and oppression in total silence, we wouldn’t be hearing a peep out of you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1045 "2015-05-28T17:18:49Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > At some point, Muslims need to grow up and start doing something about their own circumstances instead of sitting around caterwauling about the invisible “bigots” watching them shower. Most Muslims work hard to improve their circumstances, go about their daily lives peacefully, and do remarkably little caterwauling about bigots. Your ‘knowledge’ about Muslims continues to fail to impress… I don’t think you actually know much at all about Muslims in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1046 "2015-05-28T17:25:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But of course, **Haberdash** , you would never describe the situation in that factually accurate form, because it would deprive you of the opportunity to accuse _Muslims in general_ of committing these acts of violence and intimidation. I think my invocation of “punching down” is quite clearly an accusation directed at Western leftist apologists who insist that any criticism of Islam is racism and any horrific action undertaken by Muslims is justified. To what degree “Muslims in general” in Bangladesh approve of the policy of murdering apostates with machetes is worthy of discussion. It seems that it’s a fairly significant phenomenon: [Bangladesh protesters rally against atheist bloggers](http://tribune.com.pk/story/531933/bangladesh-protesters-rally-against-atheist-bloggers/) > [@](#): > > Police said about 100,000 people attended the rally during which protesters chanted “God is great, hang the atheist bloggers”. Of course, this is one of those facts and news stories that I get in trouble for sharing, and probably can’t stand up to shrieking the word “bigot” over and over again when it comes time to answer the question of what percentage of Muslims feel this way. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1047 "2015-05-28T17:32:42Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Writing off statements like “don’t rape children,” “don’t kill people,” and “allow women to leave their houses” as categorical “bigotry” Statements like “don’t rape children,” “don’t kill people,” and “allow women to leave their houses” are not bigotry. Statements like “[Muslims] venerate Muhammad (PB&J), who is attested in the Quran as a child rapist who made his fortune as a highway robber”, [“How do I know that you don’t define ‘calling you out on your bullshit’ to include murdering me [because you’re a Muslim]?”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18340194&postcount=680), and [“Better hope your father or brother don’t find out [that you live by yourself]. They might do what Muslims usually do to female family members who defy the rules”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18314226&postcount=390), on the other hand, are straight up bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1048 "2015-05-28T17:36:39Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > No, it was Teju Cole who started the “you shouldn’t kill people, unless…” meme That is not in the least like anything that Cole actually said in that article. Here’s some of what he actually said: > [@](#): > > But it is possible to defend the right to obscene and racist speech without promoting or sponsoring the content of that speech. It is possible to approve of sacrilege without endorsing racism. And it is possible to consider Islamophobia immoral without wishing it illegal. […] The _Charlie Hebdo_ cartoonists were not mere gadflies, not simple martyrs to the right to offend: they were ideologues. Just because one condemns their brutal murders doesn’t mean that one must condone their ideology. […] > > The killings in Paris were an appalling offense to human life and dignity. The enormity of these crimes will shock us all for a long time. […] > > And, even when we rightly condemn criminals who claim to act in the name of Islam, little of our grief is extended to the numerous Muslim victims of their attacks, whether in Yemen or Nigeria—in both of which there were deadly massacres this week—or in Saudi Arabia, where, among many violations of human rights, the punishment for journalists who “insult Islam” is flogging. We may not be able to attend to each outrage in every corner of the world, but we should at least pause to consider how it is that mainstream opinion so quickly decides that certain violent deaths are more meaningful, and more worthy of commemoration, than others. Absolutely no “unless…” caveat anywhere in Cole’s article that in any way suggests any justification or excuse for the _Charlie_ murders. In fact, **Haberdash** , every time you hurl one of your bullshit accusations at Teju Cole that prompts a closer examination of what he actually wrote, it becomes clearer and clearer that Cole has been far more courageous in taking public stands against Islamist-extremist violence than anonymous messageboard cockroaches like you would ever even attempt to be. Moreover, your vicious smears against Cole and others for daring to have a different opinion from you about the nature and value of some anti-Islam opinions, **even though they steadfastly defend the free-speech right to express such opinions** , don’t reflect very favorably on your alleged enthusiasm for free expression. As far as you’re concerned, the defense of free speech, like the condemnation of rape or pedophilia and the support of equal rights for LGBTQ people, is simply a convenient excuse to justify your Islamophobic bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1049 "2015-05-28T17:40:44Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > To what degree “Muslims in general” in Bangladesh approve of the policy of murdering apostates with machetes is worthy of discussion. It seems that it’s a fairly significant phenomenon: > > [Bangladesh protesters rally against atheist bloggers](http://tribune.com.pk/story/531933/bangladesh-protesters-rally-against-atheist-bloggers/) That “protest” was a rally organized by the Islamist party Hefajat-e-Islam who bused all the supporters they could manage to gather together from their stronghold of Chittagong to the capital of Dhaka, where they gave an ultimatum for the government to agree to [their 13-point list of demand](http://news.priyo.com/2013/04/06/govt-must-accept-13-points-if-wants-stay-office-he-71675.html)s by May 5, 2013. The government, needless to say, rejected them. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1050 "2015-05-28T17:41:27Z")
Standing over the corpse of a victim listing everything the murderers found wrong with him, including fabricated accusations of racism, is a justification for murder. Again, Cole wrote this \*while \*the murderers were still at large and holding hostages – hostages whose only offense was shopping at a kosher supermarket and didn’t even publish images that a tendentious Islam apologist could decide were “racist.” As for “why are we talking about this when there are Other Bad Things in the world,” that’s not as morally outrageous as the above, but it’s still a classic fallacious deflection. Everybody except your small circle of Islamophiles quite clearly understood the point of Cole’s column. His subsequent actions – including his vile appropriation of the Badawi and Roy cases to squirm out of his standing with murderers – make it all the more clear. 73 days. Six columns. Not a word about Badawi, not a word about Roy. Yeah, he really just thought the award was more deserved by someone else. Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1051 "2015-05-28T17:44:51Z")
Of course, Cole didn’t need to come up with a reason that the kosher supermarket shoppers deserved to die, as the BBC did that for him: [http://tabletmag.com/scroll/188231/bbc-anchor-suggests-french-jews-to-blame-for-palestinian-suffering](http://tabletmag.com/scroll/188231/bbc-anchor-suggests-french-jews-to-blame-for-palestinian-suffering) > [@](#): > > Willcox asked Hava if she felt threatened in France, and she replied that she hadn’t previously, but now she no longer felt safe. “We have to not be afraid to say that the Jews are the target now,” she said. Willcox then offered an odd interjection: “But many critics of Israel’s policy would suggest that the Palestinians suffer hugely at Jewish hands as well.” It’s a perfectly closed loop where Muslims can only be victims and critics of Islam can only be “bigots,” never the reverse. Cole knew what part he was playing, and you’re not convincing anyone by pretending to believe otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1052 "2015-05-28T17:51:18Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > […] the one and only thing that left-wingers have been clearly broadcasting since January: Behead those who insult Islam > [@Haberdash](#): > > Western leftist apologists who insist that any criticism of Islam is racism and any horrific action undertaken by Muslims is justified **Haberdash** , the word “strawman” doesn’t even begin to do justice to the absurdity of these ridiculous illusory “left-winger” and “Western leftist” constructs of yours. They are made from the straw left over from the bedding of Elvish cavalry unicorns that was stolen by Rumpelstiltskin for his girlfriend’s spinning project. Strawmen simply don’t get any more imaginary than this. Let’s see your **actual cite** for even **one** “leftist” who actually **says** that those who insult Islam should be beheaded. Or that **any** criticism of Islam is racism. Or that any horrific action undertaken by Muslims is justified. Actual cite, remember. Not just more accusations pulled out of your ass. We are getting rather tired of the way those smell. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1053 "2015-05-28T17:53:19Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > It’s a perfectly closed loop where Muslims can only be victims and critics of Islam can only be “bigots,” never the reverse. Actually, it’s saying that **both** Muslims and critics of Islam can be victims, and **both** Muslims and critics of Islam can be bigots. Which is the exact opposite of the way you’re trying to interpret it. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1054 "2015-05-28T17:56:33Z")
A BBC reporter – not an editorialist, a news reporter – went to a rally against racism that took place in the days after the Charlie Hebdo attack. Upon finding out that a person was Jewish, he immediately accused her of being responsible for Israeli government policy and complicity in the suffering of Palestinians. You are defending this. This is my answer to your above post about examples of what kind of insanity the proximity to Islam causes leftists to engage in. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1055 "2015-05-28T17:57:50Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Cole knew what part he was playing My, **Haberdash** , that corner you’ve backed yourself into is starting to look a little uncomfortable. When a closer examination of what Cole actually said reveals that it was in fact the exact opposite of what you were trying to pretend that he said, you switch to claiming that he was “playing a part”. How **very** convenient. _“I claim that my vile and dastardly opponents are saying X, which is a loathsome sentiment and fully justifies my condemning them! And when it turns out that what they actually said was Not-X, that just shows that they were playing a part, but everybody knows that they really **meant** X!”_ Uh-huh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1056 "2015-05-28T18:01:59Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > A BBC reporter – not an editorialist, a news reporter – went to a rally against racism that took place in the days after the Charlie Hebdo attack. Upon finding out that a person was Jewish, he immediately accused her of being responsible for Israeli government policy and complicity in the suffering of Palestinians. When did that happen? That’s not at all what took place in the incident you cited above. The reporter Willcox did not “accuse” his interlocutor of “being responsible for Israeli government policy”. [QUOTE=Haberdash] This is my answer to your above post about examples of what kind of insanity the proximity to Islam causes leftists to engage in. [/QUOTE] In other words, you don’t have a shred of anything resembling an **actual cite** of an **actual instance** of any “leftist” **actually saying** that that those who insult Islam should be beheaded, or that any criticism of Islam is racism, or that any horrific action undertaken by Muslims is justified. Not in the least surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1057 "2015-05-28T18:02:04Z")
I’m not claiming anything. Everybody who is not in the small camp of Islamophile apologists could read the article for what it was, and still can. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1058 "2015-05-28T18:03:05Z")
Scene: Tulsa, Oklahoma. An NBC reporter arrives at the site of a reported hate crime. “Yes, Mrs. Bashar, I understand that someone threw a brick through your window and said they wanted to kill Muslims. But many critics of Saudi Arabia’s policy would suggest that the Christians suffer hugely at Muslim hands as well. How do you respond?” A good reporter who is not advancing any agenda, or accusing anyone of anything, according to **Kimstu**. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1059 "2015-05-28T18:04:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In other words, you don’t have a shred of anything resembling an **actual cite** of an **actual instance** of any “leftist” **actually saying** that that those who insult Islam should be beheaded, or that any criticism of Islam is racism, or that any horrific action undertaken by Muslims is justified. This thread and the last five months of furious apologism for the Charlie Hebdo killers from the left say enough on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827/1060 "2015-05-28T18:13:36Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > A good reporter who is not advancing any agenda Ah, the wonderful Looking-Glass Land of **Haberdash** -speak, where some kind of indefinite “advancing an agenda” is the same thing as explicitly “accusing” someone of a particular action, which is the same thing as saying they’re racist, which is the same thing as calling for their beheading. Back here in the mundane world of ordinary English usage, of course, it’s perfectly possible that a reporter like Willcox may have made remarks that are inappropriate, or unfairly privileging the suffering of Muslims over that of non-Muslims, or even “advancing an agenda” of some sort. But that doesn’t automatically make them equivalent to an “accusation” of any kind. Much less to any sort of assertion that those who insult Islam should be beheaded, or that any criticism of Islam is racism, or that any horrific action undertaken by Muslims is justified. Which is what you claim that “leftists” and “progressives” all over the place are asserting, even though you can’t find any actual evidence of their actually making such assertions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fallen-blogger-and-the-spectre-of-secularism/713827.md?page=54)