I admit it – I hate pedophiles and I’m bigoted against rapists.
Why this annoys you so says a lot about you and Islam.
Are you denying the validity of the Quran and the hadith? I hear you can get executed for that in certain non-bigoted, Islamophobia-free societies.
If I want to learn about Islam, and what Muslims believe, I’ll talk to Muslims. Most of the Muslims I’ve spoken to do not believe what Haberdash thinks they believe, so I’m forced to believe that maybe Haberdash is wrong about what many Muslims believe.
I’m denying that you know anything about what the Qur’an says, much less what the various hadith say (and the status of those hadith among Muslims).
I’m sure the adolescent sex slaves that populate every Muslim society are proud to hear that they don’t really exist according to some guy on the Internet. Another problem solved by progressives!
Wait, talk to muslims? But, but…that’s dangerous. Don’t you know they’d just as soon kill you as look at you?
By the way, suggesting that Shiites/Iranians have a valid interpretation of Islam is also a good way to get burned alive in the average Muslim community. So you should be careful with the “but this group lets you depict Muhammad” links. (I know that the list of things that Muslims will lynch a person for is very long and hard to remember, so I’m trying to help out if you forget one.)
Note, by the way, that many pre-modern Western cultures endorsed marital bonds between male adults and female children, in addition to the classical Greek custom of the paiderastia between adult men and adolescent boys. Girls in ancient Athens could be betrothed to adult husbands when they were as young as five, for instance, and a Roman bride might be betrothed at seven or eight, as long as she was old enough to understand the ceremony. There was no stigma against an adult male engaging himself in this way to a girl young enough to be his daughter or granddaughter.
Of course, in pre-modern societies the official celebration and sexual consummation of such a marriage was generally delayed until the child showed physical signs of entering puberty. As far as we can tell, that was the case with the marriage of Muhammad and his youngest wife as well.
There is certainly no reason to think that any ancient or medieval society, including Muhammad’s Arabia of the seventh century, would have officially accepted or approved of a marital sexual relationship between an adult man and a girl too young to reproduce.
I see that Haberdash’s brain is so addled by his bigotry that he not only doesn’t care one bit about the prevalence of underage sex worker trafficking around the world (not just in “Muslim society”), he also doesn’t think that Iranians/Shiites count as Muslims.
It’s like some kind of hate-Alzheimers.
Dearborn has adolescent sex slaves (or at least more than similarly sized American cities)? In short, I don’t believe you. I think you’re a bigoted bullshitter who has no interest in what real world Muslims do and believe, and are only interested in evidence that confirms your entrenched and bigoted view of them.
I’ve interacted with lots of Muslims, mainly in the US and in Bahrain (I spent time there while in the Navy), and most of them were decent people. I have little doubt that there are lots of Muslims who do bad things, including abusing women. But there are also lots of Muslims who don’t do bad things, and who don’t abuse women.
Some Muslims are bad. Most are decent people who treat people decently, for the most part.
There was no stigma against raping slaves of all ages, either. This is something Islam has in common with ancient Europe.
It goes out of its way to say that the sex took place.
**“He married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.”
**
That’s the verse. Now, you’re free to reject the hadith as a reliable historical source. The problem is, Muslims are not free to do this. Either their scriptures are false, or their #1 favorite guy raped a nine-year-old.
I don’t believe that you know what Muslims are free or not free to do. There are many Muslims who are free to believe and speak out their belief on any number of variations.
There has always been controversy even among Sunni Muslims as to the age of ‘Ā’isha, and the Shias (who consider her to have been a scheming, conniving woman due to her role in the first fitnah) certainly think she was plenty mature at the time of her marriage.
Of Muhmmad’s other wives, incidentally, more than half were middle-aged women above the age of 30 (including his first and most-beloved wife, Khadija), and most of them were widows. The other wives were 20 (also a widow, her husband being a Muslim who had been killed in battle against the polytheists of Mecca), 29 (likewise a Muslim war widow), 20, and 17.
Or you have no idea how hadith work. Which there is no excuse for, since I recommended quite a few books about how they do work, and you’ve had plenty of time and opportunity to educate yourself.
If your point is that Muslims feel entitled to ignore their scriptures when it’s embarrassing or inconvenient to acknowledge them, but still demand that the rest of the world comply with the parts they like or else be massacred, then yes, I agree with you.
The book says she was nine when Muhammad fucked her the first time. Maybe she wasn’t. Maybe she never existed at all. But if you accept the validity of the book, it’s spelled out in very clear language. If you don’t accept the validity of the book, then maybe chill out and stop murdering other people for questioning the book. Gotta pick one.
What “book” would that be, Haberdash?
How weird that it seems to be only allegations of Muslim historical figures engaging in such practices that gets you upset.
The fact that the renowned medieval Jewish scholar and jurist Maimonides in the twelfth century endorsed the biblical acceptance of soldiers raping female captives doesn’t send you into spasms of hatred against Judaism in general.
Patristic Christian authorities in late antiquity were promulgating religious rules all over the place permitting adult men to become betrothed to prepubescent girls and have sex with them as soon as they showed signs of puberty, but that doesn’t seem to you like a terrible indictment of Christianity as a religion of pedophile-enablers.
In short, Haberdash, your self-righteousness about what you perceive as the uniquely immoral nature of Islam is merely the combination of your own ignorance, bigotry and hypocrisy.
This book is a hadith, not the Quran, and disputed by various sects within Islam. There is significant disagreement among Muslims as to the age of Aisha at marriage and consummation. So not all Muslims accept the validity of this book, nor do all accept this interpretation of Aisha’s age.
The difference between “Islam” and “underage sex trafficking” is academic in some respects. It’s also worth nothing that the “Islamophobia” shrieks were used to impede an investigation into one of the biggest pedophile rings in British history:
The exact same apologism on display in this thread – you must accept our practices because it’s our culture, whatabout-this-thing-someone-else-did, you’re only concerned about this because you’re a bigot – was used for decades to stonewall efforts at controlling the Muslims of Rotherham as they raped children at a compulsive rate. There’s two types of people gleefully endorsing the same tactics in this thread – those who know that it’s all a big scam to protect pedophiles, and those that are too stupid to see it.
Not me, but rather the billion or so Sunnis in the world. You want it both ways – fringe beliefs of minority groups are touted as examples of what Islam “really is” (while of course ignoring everything backwards and evil about Iran) but the fact that those minority groups are regularly massacred for being heretics somehow can’t be relevant.