OK. As you say, it is perception that matters, right?
How do you define my perception? Can you see what I see, or feel what I can feel? Unless there has been some tremendous advance in science in the past few days I don’t know about, I don’t think you can. You can make theories and assumptions based on what you can see, but you can not truly know it unless you experience it firsthand. Until then, you must rely on your own perceptions and theories. Speaking scientifically, you can not state that god does not exist. You can state that based on your observation you theorize that religion is an artificial construct, but at the same time allow for your perception to be fallible.
Another thing I am curious about. Atheists, to a large degree, tend to make the claims that their opinions are based entirely in scientific objectivity, and that they have no need to press their opinions on other people. This is well and granted, but why did you choose your name? It is clearly intended to provoke a response of some kind.
Also, as has been pointed out many times before, the track record for atheistic regimes (Lenin, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot) far outstrips those of theistic rules. Under those regimes, people were often killed because they chose to exercise their religious beliefs.
So to single out these atrocities committed in the name of religion betrays a horribly myopic view of history.
Rebuttal:
Science is indeed an artificial construct, as is religion.
ALL men are fallible, myself included.
I never said you knew anything, let alone the secrets of the universe.
Implications are also subjective impressions or feelings, based on one’s personal perceptions.
I stated everyone is ignorant regarding the true nature of the universe, including myself.
Scatology is not my forte.
Right and wrong are also subjective interpretations friend, as with everything else we percieve, be it genocide, beauty, the taste of chocolate, et cetera.
Forgive me for saying so, but you seem to enjoy putting words in people’s mouths, as did Dr. Joseph Goebbels.
Simply admit that you do not know whether there is a god, as I do, and have.
Rebuttal:
I cannot define anyone’s perceptions other than my own, and never once said that I could.
I never stated god does not exist, I stated that it was impossible to prove the existence of god either way.
Further, I stated that man’s religions and gods are invented by him alone, and that man, myself included, is much too ignorant to even attempt describing a creator, the eternal, et cetera.
Such is the epitome of arrogance, in my opinion.
My opinions are only my opinions - for all is opinion, based on observation, experience, mental state, ad infinitum.
Yes, my post name is indeed meant to provoke a response, and it has.
You seem to be intelligent - tell me where I got my post name, it is actually very simple, and I think you probably know.
Not really, considering we were not conversing of atheistic regimes that slaughtered millions of people.
A thought - communism, like capitalism, is almost a religion itself, in the literal sense, considering it was a philosophy forced down people’s throats at the point of a gun.
Stalin is alleged to has killed 30 million Christians, that is indeed appalling.
Mao, deranged Chinese despot, may have exterminated up to 60 million of his countrymen, that too is appalling.
Pol Pot is alleged to have killed up to three million, if memory serves me correctly; and yes, I’ve seen the photos of piles of skulls.
Does that mean that religion is going to save the world, if everybody believes in god?
I don’t think so, just look at our Moslem friends - they’re out to destroy the world, evidently in the name of their god Allah.
Further, look at the religious folks of Israel - they seem to be out to exterminate the Palestinians - in the name of their god Yahweh.
Religion, it seems to me, isn’t the answer, and while I concede I do not know what the answer is, it certainly isn’t any of the above.
[QUOTE=zarathustra the godless]
Rebuttal:
Science is indeed an artificial construct, as is religion.
ALL men are fallible, myself included.
I never said you knew anything, let alone the secrets of the universe.
Implications are also subjective impressions or feelings, based on one’s personal perceptions.
I stated everyone is ignorant regarding the true nature of the universe, including myself.
Scatology is not my forte.
Right and wrong are also subjective interpretations friend, as with everything else we percieve, be it genocide, beauty, the taste of chocolate, et cetera.
See, this right here is what I mean by describing shit without calling it shit. If you want to call someone a Nazi, you might as well come out and say it instead of beating around the bush. It is almost quaint. Just because you use flowery language and sirs and pleases means bupkis.
For someone tapdancing around calling genocide is a good thing, you sure are keen to point out that other people are Nazis.
Based on my observations, I theorize that there is a god.
I admit, your fear to make any actual statement does get you out of being quoted as saying whether or not god exists. However, your implication (I am forced to “put words in your mouth” by your illogical fear of putting them there yourself) is that religious folk both think they are unignorant and are ignorant, and their knowledge on the matter is irrelevant, because they do not observe the same facts as you do. This is quite illogical, as you can not know what perceptions other people have. In fact, it is entirely possible that one person can understand, to a large degree, the nature of a god. Your jealousy in not having the same understanding notwithstanding, it is still possible.
I presume that you take the Zarathustra part of your name to imply that you follow a similar philosophy, though not religion. I don’t know what that philosophy is, quite that much, but to each his own, though I do find him a curious role model for someone taking your position. I still do not understand the need to proclaim your atheism (or at least agnostism) like a beacon, but maybe that is just my ignorance speaking.
Excellent, I thank you!
You theorize there is a god; that is all I wanted you to admit.
As for Joseph Goebbels, it was not my intention to equate you or your ideology with Nazism in any way. I was comparing you to him because he was famous for twisting words and rhetoric, as you definitely attempted to do with my words on several occasions.
As for tapdancing around genocide - sorry, I duly confess that I don’t care about that, as there is nothing I can do about genocide anyway. It has occurred in the past, is happening today, and will happen in the future. I, for one, certainly have no plans of ever committing genocide, so such does not apply to me.
I am assuming you are a deist of sorts, good for you, you may be correct, though I seriously doubt it.
Incidentally - Zarathustra the Godless is from “Thus Spake Zarathustra” by Friedrich Nietzsche - you know, the guy who said ‘god is dead’.
So we are back where we started - I theorize that there is a god, you theorize that there isn’t one. shrugs Neither of us is going to get anywhere, and as long as neither tries to inflict their beliefs on anyone else, it doesn’t really matter.
As for Nazism and tapdancing, I think that if you spoke in more direct terms instead of implications, you would find less people “putting words in your mouth.” Implying that someone is ignorant is no better than calling someone ignorant. It is just more polite.
I’m not a deist, though my god is not sentient. shrugs
As for the name, do you know where Nietzsche got it from?
I have stated I DO NOT KNOW if there is a god, creator, maker, whatever.
That is not fear, that is the wise man knowing he is ignorant.
Do you know which philosopher stated this first?
You have the need to proclaim your theism, so why cannot I proclaim atheism?
Not that I am trying to preach atheism, but I am a thoroughly convinced atheist, which means that I personally do not believe there is a deity at all, although I can never prove my position, and actually couldn’t care less if I could either.
That is my opinion, and I am entitled to it.
Do you know which philosopher stated “All is opinion”?
I await your reply.
shrugs I’m not a philosopher. I never claimed to be.
The problem is this. Theists say, “I believe in god.” Atheists say, “God does not exist.” Do you understand the basic differences between the two claims?
I do most definitely, based on my subjective observations, I conclude god does not exist, not needing to cite the obvious empirical proofs.
For clarity, I will cite a few, but no so many as to bore you - pain, death, agony, little children dying from leukemia, progeria, rabies, and so forth.
Sorry - I was being a bit sarcastic!
You may find it very surprising that even I find it hard to believe that our existence popped in out of thin air for no reason at all, I simply maintain that man has no idea as to what may have been, or perhaps is, the author of what we call reality.
Indeed friend, all of this could be only a dream, and we are the fools.
I reiterate, for the record - I do not believe it is a ‘god’ - such is the dubious conjectures of man.
One might perceive an ultimate creator as ‘god’, but to claim to be able to speak for such an entity is arrogant, to say the least, in my opinion.
Like another philosopher said: “I do not know about the gods.”
I am only a man, an ignorant one, and I admit it, but I do not believe in god, and never will.
Regarding observations, you make reference and allude to a non-sentient god - will you please clarify this postulate, I would be very interested in any extrapolations you may have.
Thank you lambchops, I scoff bitterly at Yoda of Star Wars but congratulate you on good Marcus Aurelius - the only philosopher king in the history of this planet!
Nah, **** that friend, please excuse the language; if you want to continue in this rather interesting exchange, feel free to e-mail me at r.neville@nycmail.com - I’m totally bored with posting on this goofy site, as I have proven my point hands down - indeed, no one, including myself, knows anything at all, and we probably never will.
Who knows, as an optimist of sorts, perhaps someday, someone will be born who has the answers, though I honestly doubt it!
Protagoras was the philosopher who said he didn’t know about the gods, by the way.
at Yoda of Star Wars but congratulate you on good Marcus Aurelius - the only philosopher king in the history of this planet!