# The "Far Left" is already being demonized **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 7, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994 "2020-11-07T17:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/482 "2020-11-14T03:16:15Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If you call yourself ‘anti-capitalist’, as BLM and the DSA do BLM, a group protesting police violence and discrimination…is anti-capitalist? I always learn so much on the Dope! > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The progressive wing of the party is a minority, except in volume. That doesn’t win elections generally, merely some here and there. Centrists right now are not having a great run either. That’s partly why there’s this scapegoating going on. H.Clinton lost to the most unpopular republican candidate ever, and Biden just staggered over the finish line against him…must be someone else’s fault. We need to be _more_ centrist! In fairness though, I haven’t made my mind up on this, it’s an interesting topic. I think that policies like medicare for all are actually very popular, especially when you explain to people what they actually mean. But, OTOH, words like “socialism” are indeed still triggering within the US. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/483 "2020-11-14T03:21:50Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > In fairness though, I haven’t made my mind up on this, it’s an interesting topic. I forget who it was on this board who (very recently) noted that republicans NEVER fight to be centrist. They 100% pull right and have gotten the Overton Window moved right (which move the “center” to the right). Sorry to whomever it was that said that. You deserve credit for it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/484 "2020-11-14T03:53:04Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > BLM, a group protesting police violence and discrimination…is anti-capitalist? > I always learn so much on the Dope! The Founders are anti-capitalist but the Organization (as little as there is) have taken no such stand. The Founders dont really have any control. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/485 "2020-11-14T06:57:00Z")
> [@Kyrie\_Eleison](#): > > We like to forget about the [Sanders-Trump voters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanders-Trump_voters) while at the same time using them demonize the far left. We like to forget about those back in 2016 who said that they would be Trump-Sanders voters if the cards fell the other way, despite the raft of articles in the NYT and other rags that wondered how such people could exist and whether they were just pulling our legs and lying to pollsters. This is a very interesting point. The existence of Sanders-Trump voters shows that we are making a fundamental mistake in our understanding of the political spectrum. We are oversimplifying things to the point where our model is misleading. A simple, linear Left ⟵⟶ Right scale is not an adequate way of understanding political allegiances today. Sanders-Trump voters feel ‘screwed by the system’. They don’t want neoliberal mainstream Democrats _or_ neoliberal mainstream Republicans. They don’t want ‘business as usual’. They want to shake things up because the system is not working for them. They are doing badly and getting poorer, no matter how hard they work, and they reckon any change in the system is better than none. The economy is only working for the rich, and inequality is growing. If Bernie convinces them that he can fix it, they will vote for Bernie. If Trump convinces them that he can fix it they will vote for Trump. An oversimplified left-right scale doesn’t account for that. ---
**Author:** ![Elagabalus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Elagabalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elagabalus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/486 "2020-11-14T06:59:22Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Sorry to whomever it was that said that. You deserve credit for it. _waves hand_ It’s cool. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/487 "2020-11-14T12:07:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I forget who it was on this board who (very recently) noted that republicans NEVER fight to be centrist. They 100% pull right and have gotten the Overton Window moved right (which move the “center” to the right). Yes, good point (whoever made it). Right now, having just lost an election, if anyone should be thinking of moving back to the center, and promoting compromise solutions, it should be the GOP. But they’re not going to do that. Even now, it is only the Dems talking about ceding ground. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/488 "2020-11-14T12:08:22Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > One more time. No, we’re not talking about appealing to Republicans except secondarily. We’re talking about appealing to the majority of Democrats, who are - like or not - centrist Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/489 "2020-11-14T12:13:04Z")
I’ve been thinking about something like that. When I look at my RW Facebook friends who were and are spamming pro Trump anti Democrat nonsense… Well, they sometimes mention AOC and socialism. But far more common is painting Democrats = Establishment = Bad. They do this to the ridiculous extent of painting AOC as an establishment politician – apparently she and “the squad” control the party and bend Nancy Pelosi to their will with ease. I mean… that bears very little resemblance to the truth, which makes it challenging to fight. But it also seems to show that their problem with Democrats isn’t the left right scale per se, but the perception that Dems are Establishment and Republicans somehow are not. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/490 "2020-11-14T14:49:56Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Right now, having just lost an election, if anyone should be thinking of moving back to the center, and promoting compromise solutions, it should be the GOP. But they’re not going to do that. Even now, it is only the Dems talking about ceding ground. Who lost the election as a whole is debatable at this time. Republicans gained in state governments, governer’s mansions and the house. Only in the senate and president did the Dems gain and it was a very favorable environment for both. I think this election went to the Rs but told them to move on from trumps poison. Here in Colorado our odious R senator who spent all his time liking trumps ass and ignoring voters did 5 points better than trump. If the orange moron hadn’t drug the rest of the party down there is a good chance Republicans would hold the whole federal government. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/491 "2020-11-14T15:10:33Z")
Ans yet last I looked, they have little influence over policy. It’s not even clear to what degree AOC or others subscribe to the DSA platform, since they run as members of the Democratic party, not Democratic Socialist party. The model that dominates American life this minute is the antithesis of Democratic Socialist, and if anything, that version of capitalism is gaining in strength, not weakening. The rise of the DSA campaigner is a reflection of this fact, and a reaction to it. It’s a reaction to the perversion of watching a CEO of a big pharma manufacturer enriching himself simply by announcing progress made in the development of a vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/492 "2020-11-14T15:41:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If you call yourself ‘anti-capitalist’ Where exactly have I ever called myself anti-capitalist? I’m not anti-capitalist at all. This seems to be yet another case of putting imaginary arguments in other people’s mouths, so that you have an excuse to get all angry and shoot them down. In other words, setting up a straw man to knock down. I suggest you listen to what people are actually saying, not what it suits you to imagine they are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/493 "2020-11-14T16:09:36Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Who lost the election as a whole is debatable at this time. Republicans gained in state governments, governer’s mansions and the house. Only in the senate and president did the Dems gain and it was a very favorable environment for both. I think this election went to the Rs but told them to move on from trumps poison. Flip all the results round. You think the Democrats would be saying “Well this shows Americans are center-left and it was just a vote against the presidential candidate”? You think Dems would say the election was theirs? I don’t. I think it would be largely considered a failure, and Democrats would be thinking about where they went wrong. And I would agree with them. Who wins the white house matters, 200k+ Americans found that out the hard way, and we haven’t even seen all the ripple effects yet from things like stacked courts. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/494 "2020-11-14T16:13:37Z")
Centrism cannot fail; only be stabbed in the back by the Left. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/495 "2020-11-14T16:18:26Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > > The progressive wing of the party is a minority, except in volume. That doesn’t win elections generally, merely some here and there. > > Centrists right now are not having a great run either. That’s partly why there’s this scapegoating going on. Good, relevant article (despite the click-baity title): > **[What Planet Is AOC On?](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/12/what-planet-is-aoc-on-436258?fbclid=IwAR3J3WW-Bv6TsXEuw07jQP22bN4PYeF0nfPsWM_fa_YumRrdjgsFyjyG-jE)** > > Left and center agree on something: Democratic leaders don’t have a clue. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/496 "2020-11-14T16:28:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You think Dems would say the election was theirs? No, but then again I think the dems aren’t very bright about politics. They don’t seem to care about local races or have a coherent plan at anything besides winning the popular vote and bitching that very few things that matter are decided that way. They need to figure out a way to win more districts and care about district level wins. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/497 "2020-11-14T17:20:01Z")
Relevant paragraphs from that article. > It is folly for progressives to avoid the obvious: The reason they are far from achieving their policy aims goes beyond the notion that moderate Democrats are clods who can’t play the game. There are many places in the country where progressives need better arguments to reach people who don’t currently support their goals. > > The post-election memo by four progressive groups — New Deal Strategies, Justice Democrats, Sunrise Movement and Data for Progress — came closer to the mark than Ocasio-Cortez’s interview. It called for a new set of policy and rhetorical appeals that seek to merge the Black Lives Matter message with an economic message that would also appeal to less-prosperous and less-educated whites who have been attracted to Trump. There is not abundant evidence that this can be successful, but it is at least more attuned to the genuine challenge than scolding fellow Democrats for not being with it on Facebook. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/498 "2020-11-14T17:39:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Cite? Ah, perfect. Everything wrong in this thread compressed into a single word. You (as in plural you) can’t (as in can’t be taken seriously) turn around 500 posts into a thread castigating centrists as meanies who are holding down the true believers and pretend they aren’t central to the party. What conceivable evidence would it take to convince you? Here’s a chart from Pew Research. > **[Liberals make up nearly half of Democratic voters](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/01/17/liberals-make-up-largest-share-of-democratic-voters/ft_2020-01-17_demideology_01a/)** Are you just playing word games about majority and plurality? Moderates remain the plurality and liberals are second. I’d put them together as centrists, between the very conservative and very liberal. Nevertheless, very liberal is a tiny minority. One that’s growing, which is all to the good, but not yet a dominant force. Or we could look at Congress, where the [Progressive Caucus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Progressive_Caucus) has 40% of seats, still not a majority. Or [this article](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donald-trump-baselessly-claims-voter-fraud-in-cities-but-suburbs-actually-lost-him-the-election/ar-BB1aZ1Av?li=BBnbcA1&srcref=rss) which analyzed the voting patterns in the blue wall states and Georgia. Biden got _fewer_ votes than Clinton in Philadelphia and Detroit. His major pickups were in suburban counties around them, Milwaukee, and Atlanta. Suburban women have been a focus all through the election. Which is more likely to be true: they were actually hiding hordes of hundreds of thousands of far-left voters or they were centrists swayed by Biden? For the past year in threads here the far-left has refused to accept any blame and just as adamantly refused to consider well-meaning advice. It’s all over this thread like toxic mold. As someone much closer to a progressive than a moderate I find that as infuriating as it is self-defeating. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/499 "2020-11-14T18:04:40Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How many of the things I listed are even popular now? All of them. Literally every single item on your list is popular now. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Maybe they eked out a just over 50% win but I would not call them popular. Policies with the support of an outright majority of people are popular policies. That is inherent in the meaning of the word “popular”. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There are popular pundits even today saying [women should not vote.](https://scott-d-jacobsen.medium.com/ann-coulter-on-particular-suffrage-2001-2003-and-2007-6cdacd676e47) There are also popular people who think evil aliens exert malicious influence on human brains. But this has limited relevance for politics. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So again, if you don’t start you get nothing at all. You start by making the position popular. A political party should base exactly 0% of its electoral campaigns on positions that are disfavored by the majority of voters in its own party. Activists need to convince the public _first_, or else win legal victories not dependent on elections, before major elected officials start waving the banner on these issues. Interracial marriage is actually an instructive example. It’s the only item on your list that was wildly _unpopular_ at the time of legal victory (Loving v Virginia). And what did civil rights leaders of the 60s do on the topic? They _de-emphasized_ it in their pursuit of goals that were more broadly popular at the time. The Civil Rights Act, for example, had an outright majority of public support even during the 1960s. That doesn’t mean that civil rights leaders didn’t _believe_ in the issue. MLK, for example, clearly said that he thought it should be legal. But he also stated that it was not a primary goal, as he downplayed concerns that other civil rights gains would lead to more interracial marriages. “School integration has not led to an increase in [interracial] marriages. The basic aim of the Negro is not to become the white man’s brother-in-law, but his brother.” Civil rights leaders of the time were _incredibly_ sophisticated about message discipline, on such an extreme level that practically no one understands it today. But then, they had legitimate goals they were genuinely trying to achieve. It wasn’t just empty moral posturing for them. They actually cared if they succeeded, rather than the unfortunate strain of people who care merely about being seen in public furiously flying the correct flag while being utterly indifferent to actual political success which has a chance of making people’s lives better. There is an unfortunate tendency of the internet that it can seem to signal boost empty but furious flag waving, to the detriment of sophisticated and effective political organization. Elected officials should, of course, support policies they believe to be good even if the majority of people in their own party disagree. They should also de-emphasize those policies for the present, and instead emphasize policies with broader support. That is, if they care about building a winning coalition more than they care about their own celebrity. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/500 "2020-11-14T18:37:06Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > No, but then again I think the dems aren’t very bright about politics. […]They need to figure out a way to win more districts and care about district level wins. Sure. But what we were talking about, was which party should be talking about moving further towards the center and controlling their more fringe elements? In an election where Dems kept the House but lost some seats, almost took the senate, maybe losing it by one seat, and won the presidency…you consider the Republicans to be the overall winners. Well, ok, that’s debateable, but sure, if you like. But regardless, it seems once again Dems are being introspective and thinking about how to move more to the center, and republicans…are not. And if the election results were reversed…Dems would see it as a loss, and start thinking about how to broaden their appeal and soften their policies and republicans would not. That’s a problem for the future (and present) politics in the US. Because it’s just giving away more and more, and doesn’t seem to be delivering the promised results. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994/501 "2020-11-14T19:49:52Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But regardless, it seems once again Dems are being introspective and thinking about how to move more to the center, and republicans…are not. And if the election results were reversed…Dems would see it as a loss, and start thinking about how to broaden their appeal and soften their policies and republicans would not. That’s a problem for the future (and present) politics in the US. Because it’s just giving away more and more, and doesn’t seem to be delivering the promised results. Right, but my point is they should consider it a victory. You’re right they would call it a loss since they would lose the celebrity jobs but they would be able to determine districts and controll judiciary appointments. That is where they could institute a liberal agenda for the next decade. As it is nothing will happen for the next two year then the Rs will gain the house with the new districts they get to draw. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-far-left-is-already-being-demonized/924994.md?page=26)