# The fastest gun in the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 8, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588 "2006-02-08T20:40:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/1 "2006-02-08T20:40:27Z")
Was anybody ever really known by that title in the old West, and, if so, did other gunslingers seek him out to acquire the name for themselves, as in countless movies? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/2 "2006-02-08T21:40:15Z")
It’s all fiction, like almost everything associated with movies about the old west. AFAIK, nobody’s ever documented even one true stand-in-the-middle-of-a-dusty-street, pull-and-draw shootout, much less regular fastest gun contests. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/3 "2006-02-08T22:01:25Z")
I recall reading one account by an person who’d actually been is some gunfights and he essentially said the secret of his success was that he took an extra few seconds to aim. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/4 "2006-02-09T00:42:41Z")
Well, there was the inventor of the quick draw, Wellington J. French. Or, as he was known by his friends, “Old No Toes.” ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/5 "2006-02-09T00:49:54Z")
Somewhere back in the Rat Pack days I read that Sammy Davis, Jr., was one fast gunslinger. I also read that he wound up with James Dean’s red windbreaker from _Rebel Without A Cause_. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/6 "2006-02-09T01:01:25Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > Somewhere back in the Rat Pack days I read that Sammy Davis, Jr., was one fast gunslinger. I also read that he wound up with James Dean’s red windbreaker from _Rebel Without A Cause_. Off on a tangent or two: There was this fella - [http://www.ntl.matrix.com.br/pfilho/html/lyrics/b/ballad\_of\_irving.txt](http://www.ntl.matrix.com.br/pfilho/html/lyrics/b/ballad_of_irving.txt) Gene Hackman was supposedly the fastest draw on the set of “The Quick And The Dead” because he got in a lot of practice (he isn’t in as many scenes as some of the other actors). And my personal favorite, Bob Munden, who has truly been the fastest gun alive for many years: [http://www.bobmunden.com/](http://www.bobmunden.com/) [http://www.sixguns.com/range/munden.htm](http://www.sixguns.com/range/munden.htm) I’ve seen some film of him trick shooting, he’s a blur. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/7 "2006-02-09T01:53:21Z")
Nonsense. Everyone knows the fastest gun in the west was Will Sonnett. No brag, just fact. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/8 "2006-02-09T01:58:34Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > AFAIK, nobody’s ever documented even one true stand-in-the-middle-of-a-dusty-street, pull-and-draw shootout, much less regular fastest gun contests. The shootout between Wild Bill Hickock and Dave Tutt in 1865 was pretty much two guys on a dusty street pull and draw type of shootout. Dave Tutt was taunting Wild Bill about a watch that he had won the previous night in a poker game. A lot of folks think there was a lot more to the argument than a simple watch. Whatever it was about, the two guys ended up drawing their guns on each other. > [@](#): > > The matter came to a head when Tutt stole Wild Bill’s pocket watch during a poker game and bragged he would parade through Springfield’s town square wearing his rival’s prized possession. At the announced time, Wild Bill stood in the square and warned Tutt not to proceed. Unfazed, Tutt boldly strode towards his enemy and pulled his pistol. Wild Bill simultaneously drew his pistol and fired. Tutt fell - dead. Wild Bill quickly turned and leveled his gun towards a crowd of Tutt’s supporters who had gathered nearby, warning them not to interfere. They took the hint. From here: [http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/hickok.htm](http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/hickok.htm) They didn’t quite just stand there and shoot, but it was pretty close. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/9 "2006-02-09T02:03:19Z")
There was a gun that won the west. There was a man, among the best. The fastest gun or man alive, a lightning bolt when he drew that colt …45. Wade Preston as Christopher Colt I hope that clears it all up. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/10 "2006-02-09T02:26:48Z")
Cecil addresses this question [here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040625.html). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/11 "2006-02-09T02:48:17Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > The shootout between Wild Bill Hickock and Dave Tutt in 1865 was pretty much two guys on a dusty street pull and draw type of shootout. Dave Tutt was taunting Wild Bill about a watch that he had won the previous night in a poker game. A lot of folks think there was a lot more to the argument than a simple watch. Whatever it was about, the two guys ended up drawing their guns on each other. > > From here: [Shoot Out with "Wild Bill" Hickok, 1869](http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/hickok.htm) > > They didn’t quite just stand there and shoot, but it was pretty close. It’s a cute story, but it probably didn’t happen quite that way. In fact, Hickok probably had his gun out and waiting. [The Shootout between Wild Bill Hickok and Dave Tutt: The Holcombe Version](http://history.missouristate.edu/FTMiller/LocalHistory/Wild%20Bill/HolcombeShootout.htm) from the Local History Website of the SMSU Department of History. > [@](#): > > Just then Tutt came out of the livery stable and walked south along the square. Bill saw him and exclaimed, “There he comes now.” The little group about Bill scattered, and he took a few steps forward and drew his revolver, a Colt’s dragoon, with cap and ball. > > Just as Tutt reached the corner of the courthouse and Campbell street, Bill called out, “Dave, don’t you come across here with that watch.” Tutt, as some say, drew his pistol, and almost instantly Bill fired, using one arm as a rest for his revolver. Tutt fell, shot nearly through the heart, and died very soon. Some deposed that Tutt’s revolver was out of its scabbard when the body was first examined, and that Tutt had fired first. One chamber of the revolver was empty, and there were those who swore that they heard two pistol shots. Bill’s shot was a fine one, but it is said by those who knew him well that it was a chance shot, for it is averred that when here Wild Bill was not considered a crack shot at all, and that his shot which killed Tutt at a distance of 75 yards was an accident. Source: “Killing of Dave Tutt by ‘Wild Bill,’” in R. I. Holcombe, History of Greene County, Missouri (1883) As Cecil wrote in his column, this was mythologized into something more than legalized murder, but it’s not in any way a fair quick draw movie-style duel. None of the other contemporaneous sources I found, such as those [on this page](http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/WWhickok.htm) (which don’t back up what the web writer has to say), mention anything more than Tutt’s being shot and Hickok’s being acquitted. Obviously, if you read the Harper’s Weekly articles, the mythologizing started early and at full bore. Therefore, I’d like to see something contemporary contradicting the Holcombe piece before I change my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/12 "2006-02-09T18:44:35Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > AFAIK, nobody’s ever documented even one true stand-in-the-middle-of-a-dusty-street, pull-and-draw shootout, much less regular fastest gun contests. I don’t know about the shootouts in the middle of the street, but you’re quite wrong about regular “fastest gun” contests. They still go on today. We have them every year in a town near here (Montana), and I’ve seen promotions for them in Wyoming, California, Texas, and New Mexico. I don’t know when they began, but I’d imagine that for as long as people have had pistols and watches with second hands, they’ve timed each other shooting and had contests. At least [one group](http://www.fastdraw.org/) has been holding them for the last 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/13 "2006-02-09T18:59:49Z")
The fast draw, in the Hollywood sense, seems to have been unknown in the Old West (as opposed to the showbiz versions of it that were touring the eastern cities even as the Frontier was being laid to rest). John Wesley Hardin makes no reference to it in his memoir; when he was arrested on a train he had his gun tucked in the waist of his trousers and got it caught inextricably in his galluses [suspenders]. After that he got a shoulder holster made. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/14 "2006-02-09T19:41:53Z")
**InvisibleWombat** , what you’re referring to is the _result_ of the mythology, not the _cause_ of it. Two totally different things. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/15 "2006-02-09T21:15:44Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > **InvisibleWombat** , what you’re referring to is the _result_ of the mythology, not the _cause_ of it. What I’m referring to is (in your words) documentation of “regular fastest gun contests.” My _facts_ indicate that these contests do indeed occur, and have for at least half a century. You said nobody had ever documented such a thing, and I provided links to documentation. My _hypothesis_ is that such contests were going on long before the days of Bill Hickock and Wyatt Earp. If you combine testosterone, noisy weapons, and a method for timing them, it’s pretty close to inevitable that timed shooting contests will ensue. My friends and I did it ourselves as teenagers, timing who could nail three empty cans in the shortest amount of time. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/16 "2006-02-09T23:24:26Z")
Did you read the OP? The one that referred to Hollywood movies? The one in which the “fastest gun” is regularly tested by wannabes in shoot-outs to see who really has the quickest draw? Have you ever seen the movie [The Gunfighter](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042531/), the best movie Hollywood ever made on this subject, and one in which Gregory Peck was brilliant in? > [@](#): > > Ringo in his younger days was one of the “fastest guns in the west” who has survived to reach middle age. As he has matured he realizes you can’t change what has happened. > > Everywhere Ringo goes he is perceived as the “the fastest gun in the west” and everywhere he stops there is some young gun who wants to prove he is faster than the great Ringo. Do you understand that there is no documentation for those “regular fastest gun contests” in the real old west, which can be the only possible thing I was referring to in my post? Do you understand what context is? Do you understand the parallelism in the contruction “even one … much less”? Are we reading the same thread at all? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/17 "2006-02-10T05:44:34Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Did you read the OP? The one that referred to Hollywood movies? (snip) Do you understand that there is no documentation for those “regular fastest gun contests” in the real old west, which can be the only possible thing I was referring to in my post? Do you understand what context is? Do you understand the parallelism in the contruction “even one … much less”? Are we reading the same thread at all? I read and understood all of it, **Exapno**. Now perhaps it’s time for you to reread what you wrote (fastest gun contests _have never been documented_), and what I first wrote (“I don’t know about the shootouts in the middle of the street…”). Okay. Got that much? I wasn’t disputing your statement about people shooting each other in the streets. Now reread where I said, “My _hypothesis_ is that such contests were going on long before the days of Bill Hickock and Wyatt Earp.” I still feel that fast draw contests have probably been taking place since shortly after pistols were invented, and about ten seconds of Googling traced it back at least 50 years. Instead of debating the point, you keep trying to dodge it with semantics. If you’re trying to change what you said, then come on out and change it. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/18 "2006-02-10T13:06:33Z")
**InvisibleWombat**. Before this gets out of hand, I think you should understand that **Exapno** was simply saying that regular contests of gunfighters in the Old West doing such things was unlikely as there is no documentation prior to the movies of the early 20th century. Since there is nothing in the OP that requires a discussion of what has happened in the last fifty years in the “Modern West,” let’s just let this disagreement drop. To others, I’ll leave the thread open, but please post to add info that will contribute only to the question asked in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/19 "2006-02-10T15:59:36Z")
OK, **Sam** , consider it dropped. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588/20 "2006-02-10T17:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Just then Tutt came out of the livery stable and walked south along the square. Bill saw him and exclaimed, “There he comes now.” The little group about Bill scattered, and he took a few steps forward and drew his revolver, a Colt’s dragoon, with cap and ball. > > Just as Tutt reached the corner of the courthouse and Campbell street, Bill called out, “Dave, don’t you come across here with that watch.” Tutt, as some say, drew his pistol, and almost instantly Bill fired, using one arm as a rest for his revolver. Tutt fell, shot nearly through the heart, and died very soon. Some deposed that Tutt’s revolver was out of its scabbard when the body was first examined, and that Tutt had fired first. One chamber of the revolver was empty, and there were those who swore that they heard two pistol shots. Bill’s shot was a fine one, but it is said by those who knew him well that it was a chance shot, for it is averred that when here Wild Bill was not considered a crack shot at all, and that his shot which killed Tutt at a distance of 75 yards was an accident. If you hit anything small at 75 yards with a cap and ball revolver, it’s pretty much an accident. I believe even the best of those revolvers, meticulously maintained and lubricated, with special care taken to make sure the balls are perfectly smooth and such, might have a group of maybe 2" at 15-20 yards. So at 75 yards probably even the best shot wouldn’t ba able to do better than 6" to 1’ groupings. Now consider a worn, possibly poorly maintained gun, maybe slightly dirty, with balls typical of what might have been available over the counter in the 1800’s… Not much accuracy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fastest-gun-in-the-west/343588.md?page=2)