# The FBI is either apallingly stupid or abominably malicious (re: pedophile hunts) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 21, 2008, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200 "2008-03-21T06:06:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/1 "2008-03-21T06:06:25Z")
[You’re going to click this link.](http://pedowar.com/view/755#1) You might not want to click links in the future. They may get the FBI to take you down _hard_: > [@](#): > > The government’s hyperlink sting operation worked like this: FBI Special Agent Wade Luders disseminated links to the supposedly illicit porn on an online discussion forum called Ranchi, which Luders believed was frequented by people who traded underage images. One server allegedly associated with the Ranchi forum was [rangate.da.ru](http://rangate.da.ru), which is now offline with a message attributing the closure to “non-ethical” activity. > > In October 2006, Luders posted a number of links purporting to point to videos of child pornography, and then followed up with a second, supposedly correct link 40 minutes later. All the links pointed to, according to a bureau affidavit, a “covert FBI computer in San Jose, California, and the file located therein was encrypted and non-pornographic.” > > Some of the links, including the supposedly correct one, included the hostname [upload.sytes.net](http://upload.sytes.net). [Sytes.net](http://Sytes.net) is hosted by [no-ip.com](http://no-ip.com), which provides dynamic domain name service to customers for $15 a year. > > When anyone visited the [upload.sytes.net](http://upload.sytes.net) site, the FBI recorded the Internet Protocol address of the remote computer. There’s no evidence the referring site was recorded as well, meaning the **FBI couldn’t tell if the visitor found the links through Ranchi or another source such as an e-mail message.** Read the bolded part a few times. Some asshole could put the link in a message board post or an email passed around the Internet or into the Javascript of a webpage and trick you into incriminating yourself as a pedophile. _ **You don’t even have to click a link to be a winner.** _ (Referer\* headers can be forged via proxies, so even if the FBI _did_ look at them it would still have been egregiously stupid. The fact they _didn’t_ indicates either stupidity or something worse.) Shit, someone could forge packets so they appear to be from your computer and implicate you that way. There is absolutely no technical reason why they couldn’t. \*(It’s spelled “Referrer” in English and “Referer” in HTTP. Browsers speak HTTP.) Judges consider this A-OK: > [@](#): > > With the logs revealing those allegedly incriminating IP addresses in hand, the FBI sent administrative subpoenas to the relevant Internet service provider to learn the identity of the person whose name was on the account–and then obtained search warrants for dawn raids. > > [snip] > > While it might seem that merely clicking on a link wouldn’t be enough to justify a search warrant, courts have ruled otherwise. On March 6, U.S. District Judge Roger Hunt in Nevada agreed with a magistrate judge that the hyperlink-sting operation constituted sufficient probable cause to justify giving the FBI its search warrant. > > The defendant in that case, Travis Carter, suggested that any of the neighbors could be using his wireless network. (The public defender’s office even sent out an investigator who confirmed that dozens of homes were within Wi-Fi range.) > > But the magistrate judge ruled that even the possibilities of spoofing or other users of an open Wi-Fi connection “would not have negated a substantial basis for concluding that there was probable cause to believe that evidence of child pornography would be found on the premises to be searched.” Translated, that means the search warrant was valid. The Wi-Fi thing is fairly scary as well. Anyone who uses your Wi-Fi connection without your knowledge could be implicating you in who-knows-what. Used to be, though, the worst they could do was get you sued in one of the RIAA/MPAA’s scattershot “John Doe” copyright suits. Now they can convince the FBI to charge you with child pornography. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/2 "2008-03-21T06:17:03Z")
Holy shit. That’s pretty despicable. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/3 "2008-03-21T06:57:35Z")
This is orders of magnitude cooler than rick rolling someone. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/4 "2008-03-21T07:03:10Z")
:eek: :eek: :eek: Has the sonic boom from the various rights orginizations jumping on this died down yet? Please tell me this will get overturned once the judge can be sat down and have this explained to them?! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/5 "2008-03-21T07:24:09Z")
“OK, see, there’s all of these tubes…” ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/6 "2008-03-21T07:37:03Z")
[A link with a lot more detail.](http://www.news.com/8301-13578_3-9899151-38.html?tag=nefd.pop) In case you thought my original link was a hoax. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/7 "2008-03-21T07:39:18Z")
:eek: This kind of crap is one reason I do NOT have WI-Fi set up at home. There are probably a dozen apartments around me that could leech bandwidth through any wireless base station I might own. But still, the situation described by the OP is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/8 "2008-03-21T11:56:46Z")
If you have wi-fi, put a key on it. Sheesh. That way, your neighbors won’t be stealing your porn. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/9 "2008-03-21T13:29:50Z")
My neighbour should be thankful I only use the free wireless for Wii and DS gaming. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/10 "2008-03-21T13:31:31Z")
[QUOTE=Tenebras] This is orders of magnitude cooler than rick rolling someone. [/QUOTE] I’m in ur network clickin ur linkz. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/11 "2008-03-21T14:00:23Z")
It’s just a search warrant. -FrL- [ducks] ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/12 "2008-03-21T14:15:37Z")
[QUOTE=Clothahump] If you have wi-fi, put a key on it. Sheesh. [/QUOTE] Our wi-fi isn’t simply locked, it’s dead. We think the antenna connector went bad. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/13 "2008-03-21T14:15:43Z")
Hey, at least sometimes the FBI is still going to the trouble of _getting_ a warrant. That’s encouraging, right? Right?! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/14 "2008-03-21T14:30:04Z")
How much cause is needed to justify a search warrant, **Derleth**? We need evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone of a crime, but what’s the level of evidence we need for a search warrant? ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/15 "2008-03-21T14:36:49Z")
Unless I am mistaken, net accelerators function by automatically downloading information from the links on a page you haven’t even clicked on yet. That way, when you do click on them most of the information is already downloaded, making it appear that you have a very fast connection. That would mean that anyone with a net accelerator who visits one of the sites where the FBI dumped the dummy links would look like they were visiting the “child porn” sites. So, running a net accelerator is enough to get the FBI knocking on your door with a search warrant. Ouch. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/16 "2008-03-21T14:42:58Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] How much cause is needed to justify a search warrant, **Derleth**? We need evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone of a crime, but what’s the level of evidence we need for a search warrant? [/QUOTE] That someone at an IP address clicked on a link isn’t evidence of anything whatsoever, to any degree. The reference to rick rolling above is quite apropos. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/17 "2008-03-21T14:44:50Z")
[QUOTE=flight] Unless I am mistaken, net accelerators function by automatically downloading information from the links on a page you haven’t even clicked on yet. That way, when you do click on them most of the information is already downloaded, making it appear that you have a very fast connection. That would mean that anyone with a net accelerator who visits one of the sites where the FBI dumped the dummy links would look like they were visiting the “child porn” sites. So, running a net accelerator is enough to get the FBI knocking on your door with a search warrant. Ouch. [/QUOTE] That’s cause for some concern. Was Vosburgh running a net accelerator? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/18 "2008-03-21T14:46:26Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] That someone at an IP address clicked on a link isn’t evidence of anything whatsoever, to any degree. The reference to rick rolling above is quite apropos. [/QUOTE] Really? It’s not evidence of anything at all? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/19 "2008-03-21T14:52:20Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Really? It’s not evidence of anything at all? Why not? [/QUOTE] Really? It’s not obvious? :dubious: Look, it happens on message boards all over the internet all the time. Even on this one. Someone posts a link that looks something like this: Click this! It’s just a funny cartoon! (Or whatever) So you click it and it’s not at all a funny cartoon, but something else meant to startle you/annoy you/etc. Come on, man, you can’t have been on the internet more than two weeks without accidentally clicking some link you didn’t mean to. Sure, over the years you’ve learned to avoid clicking on such links, but you can’t say you never have. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200/20 "2008-03-21T14:53:54Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Really? It’s not evidence of anything at all? Why not? [/QUOTE] It is evidence, but not enough, IMH-non lawyer-O, to grant a search warrant. Why? Well, there are reasons a person may click that sort of link that don’t mean they want kiddie porn. For instance, I may see a link to something I think is questionable on this website. I could click that link, and then, if I found something ‘bad’ I would then report it to a moderator. I wouldn’t report a ‘suspected’ bad link because I don’t want to waste the moderators time. Or I may see a link titled “see little kids have sex” and think that it is some sort of joke. Or I may wish to view the site and then notify the FBI. But since the link just goes to a dead page, without kiddie porn, I would not take any follow up action that would indicate that I was not after the kiddie porn. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbi-is-either-apallingly-stupid-or-abominably-malicious-re-pedophile-hunts/442200.md?page=2)