# The FBI's unprecedented attack on civil rights \[2012 FBI vs Juggalos\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141 "2012-08-11T01:38:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/21 "2012-08-11T04:36:30Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > I was asking what you meant by “prosecuted as a gang member”. Take the armed robbery suspect in your link - how would he be, or has he been, treated more harshly as a juggalo? > > I was also asking you to back up your implication that you can be “thrown in jail for having a hatchet man on your shirt”, with examples of juggalos being persecuted by law enforcement solely for their interest in ICP. > > I can agree that it could be silly to name fans of a certain band a “gang”, but maybe you can point out specific instances of civil rights being violated, since I didn’t see any. The juggalosfightback website is only hours old at the time of this writing but I am sure the horror stories will be coming in shortly. Until then I am sorry to say that specific persecution of Juggalos has not reached my news feed just yet. However, that isn’t really the point. The point is that the FBI is painting with a very broad brush here and it might affect people who have absolutely nothing else to brand them as criminals. Does the FBI have extra powers to go after gang members? Is it easier for them to get search warrants? Set up wiretaps, et cetera? The FBI is basically declaring that if you dare listen to the music of ICP or represent them with t-shirts, tattoos, whatnot that you are a legitimate target for investigation in the same manner gangs such as MS-13 would be treated. I cannot quote US statues to you regarding extra charges one might rack up for being in a gang whilst committing a crime. However I am certain they exist. For that matter, simply being in an FBI database as a member of a gang would probably cause complications for anyone who had to have any kind of background check done on them. Imagine a potential employer: “We did a standard criminal record check on you and the FBI has you flagged as belonging to this “Juggalo” gang. We don’t know or care who they are and we’re not interested in your explanation or application. We don’t hire gang members.” Lather, rinse and repeat for the rest of your life. The problem is not that specific civil rights are being violated right this minute. The problem is that the FBI has declared that they can and will take a big dump on your freedom of expression and speech and no one seems to care. Try this: go to that FBI page and where you see the word “juggalos” substitute your group of choice such as “Jews” or “blacks” and see how it reads. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/22 "2012-08-11T05:04:44Z")
> [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](#): > > I kinda thought their ignorant hillbilly fans started reading their lyrics from the liner notes and realized they were the butt of the joke at some point. Self-reflection? Intellectual epiphany? From a juggalo? _ **Ha!** _ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/23 "2012-08-11T05:16:15Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > The problem is not that specific civil rights are being violated right this minute. The problem is that the FBI has declared that they can and will take a big dump on your freedom of expression and speech and no one seems to care. Try this: go to that FBI page and where you see the word “juggalos” substitute your group of choice such as “Jews” or “blacks” and see how it reads. Okay, I got: “Jews” or “blacks” are traditionally fans of the musical group the Insane Clown Posse. Arizona, California, Pennsylvania, and Utah are the only US states that recognize “Jews” or “blacks” as a gang. See, now that’s just weird. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/24 "2012-08-11T05:21:25Z")
I hope someone realizes the FBI isn’t calling all Juggalos gang members. They’re saying that there are Juggalos forming street gangs, and they’ve also discovered Juggalos in the military who have committed crimes. It sounds like a broad brush, but it’s just terminology. They also refer to motorcycle gangs as One Percenters. Yet I don’t think they’re running over to Wall Street to arrest hedge fund managers who are known by that same name. I don’t ordinarily defend the FBI, but I sure as hell ain’t gonna defend those ass clowns. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/25 "2012-08-11T05:41:06Z")
Seems to me an example of the idiocy of (probably a few members of) law enforcement in action. It’ll actually probably be recognised as such quite quickly. What they won’t notice is that says so much about the legitimacy about the usua things they do. It’s all rubbish. They’re silly people. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/26 "2012-08-11T05:51:41Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > The juggalosfightback website is only hours old at the time of this writing but I am sure the horror stories will be coming in shortly. Until then I am sorry to say that specific persecution of Juggalos has not reached my news feed just yet. So, no examples of coordinated FBI action to attack the civil rights of Juggalos. > [@DWMarch](#): > > I cannot quote US statues to you regarding extra charges one might rack up for being in a gang whilst committing a crime. However I am certain they exist. For that matter, simply being in an FBI database as a member of a gang would probably cause complications for anyone who had to have any kind of background check done on them. Is “suspected gang member” the kind of thing that shows up on the type of background report an employer would do? Would such a thing show up if the individual has never been convicted of any crime? > [@DWMarch](#): > > The problem is that the FBI has declared that they can and will take a big dump on your freedom of expression and speech and no one seems to care. What you mean is, no one seems to _agree_ that the FBI is taking a big dump on anyone’s freedom of expression. All that happened was a national report called out the fact that organized violent crime is occurring by groups of individuals self-identifying as juggalos. Provided the methodology is sound, that’s a simple fact as reported by the FBI, not an attack on civil rights or freedom. If there’s something specific on the [fbi.gov](http://fbi.gov) page you disagree with or think is somehow unfair or inaccurate, feel free to call it out - it read a little silly to me, but I didn’t see anything objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/27 "2012-08-11T09:46:48Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > But will you accept this kind of thing when your favorite artist puts you on the FBI’s most wanted list? Somehow, I don’t see a big government crack down on Aimee Mann fans happening any time soon. But, let’s say I’m (God help me) a Juggalo. On weekends, I like to get with my Juggalo friends, put on clown makeup, and go out and deal drugs at nursing homes, or beat up orphans, or burn down every Stuckey’s in a twenty mile radius. And while we’re doing it, we’re shouting, “Yeah! We love ICP, and we love breaking the law! Woo!” That’s a gang. Sure, it may be .0001% of the ICP fanbase, but it’s still a gang, it’s a gang based around being an ICP fan, and it’s a gang whose identifying features are ICP tattoos and clothing and music. If the cops want to bust up that gang, how else are they supposed to identify them, except as a gang of Juggalos? Now, yeah, if they start pepper spraying people just for listening to _The Amazing Jeckel Brothers_, that’s an entirely laudable outcome. I mean, a gross civil rights violations. But as far as I can tell, that hasn’t actually happened yet. If it does, come back and let us know, and I will do my absolute utmost to try and care about it. But right now, this seems like a non-issue to me. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/28 "2012-08-11T14:56:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Now, yeah, if they start pepper spraying people just for listening to The Amazing Jeckel Brothers, that’s an entirely laudable outcome. I mean, a gross civil rights violations. You were right the first time. I remember a few years back (actually, it might have been more than a few), ICP played a concert in upstate New York and local Juggalos recorded the before-concert party and played it on public access. In the one scene I saw while flipping channels, a Juggalo ripped off his girlfriend’s shirt and screamed “Who wants to rape my girlfriend!” Classy people, surely. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/29 "2012-08-11T14:57:33Z")
[QUOTE=DWMarch] I cannot quote US statues to you regarding extra charges one might rack up for being in a gang whilst committing a crime. However I am certain they exist. For that matter, simply being in an FBI database as a member of a gang would probably cause complications for anyone who had to have any kind of background check done on them. Imagine a potential employer: “We did a standard criminal record check on you and the FBI has you flagged as belonging to this “Juggalo” gang. We don’t know or care who they are and we’re not interested in your explanation or application. We don’t hire gang members.” Lather, rinse and repeat for the rest of your life. . [/QUOTE] Haha is that really how low we have set the bar on the dope now? “let me pull this outta my ass but I’m sure I’m right.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/30 "2012-08-11T14:59:32Z")
This story reminds me of the DHS report a couple years ago on home grown extremists. The report basically said that there is a risk of domestic terrorist acts, probably by well-armed right wingers who tend to have military experience and severe cases of xenophobia. Then huge numbers of traditional conservatives went apeshit because they had spent some time in the Army and enjoy their Second Amendment rights, and DHS was chasened from talking about domestic terrorism. Then we have the massacre at the temple by whom? A vegan hipster from Portland, of course. Oh, wait, that’s not right: by a far right-extremist who is not representative of your average conservative who lives in Colorado Springs. Great, many Juggalos just like to listen to death-hip hop written by drug addled clown wrestlers. That doesn’t mean you’re all saints. If the FBI put out a warning about threats from extremist liberal groups interested in environmental causes, I’d say to myself, “Whoa, EarthFirst is still around? Didn’t they blow themselves up with biodegradeable pipe bombs in Oakland back in the '90s?” Then I’d move on with my life, because the FBI obviously isn coming after me just because I recycle. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/31 "2012-08-11T15:29:20Z")
Being a member of a gang is not a crime and won’t, in and of itself, show up on a criminal background check. Hell, you could walk up to an FBI office and tell them you’re a Blood and they can’t do anything about it. You’re much more likely to get turned down for a job because you have a bunch of moronic tattoos plastered over your face and body. Forgive me if I don’t feel sympathy for a guy who gets a stronger penalty for knocking over a convenience store because of his affiliations. Maybe, I don’t know, don’t be a violent criminal in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/32 "2012-08-11T16:29:24Z")
Looks like you don’t have to do much, have any level of cohesion or even many members to be classified as a gang by the FBI. Any basketball starting 5 would probably do. For instance > [@](#): > > Juggalos’ disorganization and lack of structure within their groups, coupled with their transient nature, makes it difficult to classify them and identify their members and migration patterns. Many criminal Juggalo sub-sets are comprised of transient or homeless individuals, according to law enforcement reporting. and > [@](#): > > Law enforcement reporting indicates a significant increase in OMGs in a number of jurisdictions, with approximately 44,000 members nationwide comprising approximately 3,000 gangs. Less than 15 members per gang on average and surely some motor cycle gangs are large? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/33 "2012-08-11T16:51:19Z")
And Twitter has increased the number of OMGs, therefore Tweeters are gangs, as well as the speakers, like John Boehner who is a Republican, therefore the FBI is denying the GOP their right to act like Juggalos. Clearly this is Obama’s fault, and here is [Obama wearing Juggalo makeup](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/55/Barack_Obama_Hope_poster.jpg/220px-Barack_Obama_Hope_poster.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_%2522Hope%2522_poster&h=330&w=220&sz=25&tbnid=xDMjn-su8ev8aM:&tbnh=81&tbnw=54&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dobama%2Bhope%2Bimage%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=obama+hope+image&usg=__b-FxBEN5aGwLZMD0fYhHgWh0e_U=&docid=_XPYkrsOpFE7vM&sa=X&ei=UY0mUMy-JYXe0QHX-oHQDA&ved=0CFEQ9QEwAA&dur=443). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/34 "2012-08-11T16:54:45Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Less than 15 members per gang on average and surely some motor cycle gangs are large? And if they have a record of violence the FBI probably considers them gangs. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/35 "2012-08-11T16:57:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Being a member of a gang is not a crime and won’t, in and of itself, show up on a criminal background check. Weeeeell that all depends. Are Juggalos being hit with RICO ? Because if so, simply openly portraying membership of the group is grounds enough for prosecution, AND (if I’m reading the law correctly) being charged with the sum total of the criminal charges attributed to the group, regardless of whether you were there or got inducted into the fanclub yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/36 "2012-08-11T17:13:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Fucking dragnets, how do they work? Cops go in, cops go out. No miscommunication. You can’t explain it! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/37 "2012-08-11T17:24:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Weeeeell that all depends. Are Juggalos being hit with RICO ? Because if so, simply openly portraying membership of the group is grounds enough for prosecution, AND (if I’m reading the law correctly) being charged with the sum total of the criminal charges attributed to the group, regardless of whether you were there or got inducted into the fanclub yesterday. I don’t think that’s how it works, but I’m no expert on RICO. Could you furnish a few cites? I looked at the Wikipedia article but I didn’t see anything about that. The only direct evidence I have is the gang unit cop who came to my school to give us a rundown on local gangs. He was pretty clear that being in a gang is not a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/38 "2012-08-11T17:42:41Z")
The link in the OP talks about motorcycle gangs, by the way. This is an FBI analysis of different types of gangs and trends in gang activity, not some kind of bizarre argument that any group of people is a gang. They also specifically don’t say these people are all criminals or gang members. > [@](#): > > Most crimes committed by Juggalos are sporadic, disorganized, individualistic, and often involve simple assault, personal drug use and possession, petty theft, and vandalism. However, open source reporting suggests that a small number of Juggalos are forming more organized subsets and engaging in more gang-like criminal activity, such as felony assaults, thefts, robberies, and drug sales. Does anybody object to describing an organized group of people selling drugs or attacking people or committing robberies as a gang? I don’t. So it seems to me that any complaints about this (by ICP fans or by people saying this is a civil rights issue) are based on a very shallow look at the story. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/39 "2012-08-11T18:48:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I hope someone realizes the FBI isn’t calling all Juggalos gang members. They’re saying that there are Juggalos forming street gangs, and they’ve also discovered Juggalos in the military who have committed crimes. It sounds like a broad brush, but it’s just terminology. They also refer to motorcycle gangs as One Percenters. Yet I don’t think they’re running over to Wall Street to arrest hedge fund managers who are known by that same name. And yet there are much larger crimes happening on Wall Street than there ever have been by any group of juggalos anywhere. Perhaps the FBI’s time would be better served investigating this. However I see in the news that Goldman Sachs has escaped criminal charges. Good they they weren’t representing for the hatchet. > [@Miller](#): > > Somehow, I don’t see a big government crack down on Aimee Mann fans happening any time soon. It’s not the group that matters. It’s the idea that what you wear or what you listen to is enough for the FBI to target you. Do you really want to live in a country where civil rights is the result of a popularity contest? We don’t like ICP so fuck their fans, throw the bastards in jail! Okay, now that that’s done can we throw those goddamned Beliebers in there too? Great, now how about Nickelback fans? Do we have a wall long enough to line them all up against? > [@Loach](#): > > Haha is that really how low we have set the bar on the dope now? “let me pull this outta my ass but I’m sure I’m right.” You do have laws against gangs in the US don’t you? Is it actually considered wrong here to admit when you don’t know something? I’m not a lawyer so I’m not going to try to quote law to you. However yes I do consider it to be common knowledge that there are specific laws that target gang members even if I cannot tell you exactly what those laws are. Your presumption of innocence, right to free speech and right to free expression has been declared null and void by the FBI and nobody cares? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141/40 "2012-08-11T18:52:53Z")
It isn’t news. Been doing it since before I was born. Which wasn’t yesterday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fbis-unprecedented-attack-on-civil-rights-2012-fbi-vs-juggalos/631141.md?page=3)