# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/181 "2014-04-14T20:25:52Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Arming yourself is not threatening force. For either side. _Threatening force_ is threatening force. Whichever side does that first is wrong. Bearing arms on someone else’s land for the purpose of making it more difficult to be removed from that land is an implicit threat of force against the landowner and his agents. Like the gun folks say, you don’t take out a gun unless you are willing to use it. I’m not a gun type myself, so I have to take them at their word. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/182 "2014-04-14T20:34:04Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Perhaps I’m misinterpreting everyone. It certainly sounds to me that a lot of people in this thread are disappointed that the government didn’t crack down on these “yokels” who had the audacity to practice their first and second amendment rights for a cause the poster doesn’t personally agree with. At the risk of re-inciting the gun debate, I’d say Black Panthers marching on the California state capitol with weapons slung is exerting 2nd amendment rights. Ronald Reagan promptly enacted laws outlawing guns in public. Suspicious, to say the least. In this instance? Not so much. I see intimidation and outright intent to instigate armed violence and at first glance, I’d say the intimidation won, which shouldn’t be tolerated. The arm of the law is long and patient though. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/183 "2014-04-14T20:35:32Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Wiki says they vandalized police cars and called for “bringing the war home”. > > Sounds like those kids were not only calling for violence, but participating in it. They burned the ROTC building! You can do a whole lot of property damage without crossing the all-important line into violence against persons. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/184 "2014-04-14T20:36:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Bearing arms on someone else’s land for the purpose of making it more difficult to be removed from that land is an implicit threat of force against the landowner and his agents. > > Like the gun folks say, you don’t take out a gun unless you are willing to use it. I’m not a gun type myself, so I have to take them at their word. Please distinguish between simply having a gun on your person, and “taking it out” as if to use it. Having a firearm is not a threat. Brandishing or pointing it at someone is. The former is not wrong, the latter is except in cases of self-defense, where someone else threatened you first. I maintain that the protesters who simply brought weapons to a protest (weapons there is a good chance they carry every day, like a pocket knife), weren’t threatening anyone. Asshole on the overpass in the prone position with body armor, however, _was_ provoking the government, and put himself, the Bundy family, the innocent protesters, and the BLM agents in significant danger by that act alone. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/185 "2014-04-14T20:37:25Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Can anyone please point out any threat the protesters made? How did they bully anyone? > > And to be clear _I’m defending the government here_. They shouldn’t have let this dispute even come to this, but _not murdering protesters_ was the right call here. Hooray BLM, for not starting another Waco. No one’s disputing that; but if it **had** come down to shooting, the protesters, and not the feds, would have deserved everything they got. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/186 "2014-04-14T20:38:37Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I saw it. That guy at least was threatening the feds. I’m even more impressed now by their restraint. I still assume most of the protesters were peaceful and not threatening, but that guy could have easily ruined it for everyone. Yup. One is all it takes (referencing the Kent State incident that someone - possibly you - made reference to earlier, I believe that the person shot in that famous photo was shot by a member of the National Guard who had _not_ been given permission to shoot). ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/187 "2014-04-14T20:38:42Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > ETA: “Bearing arms” is specifically _not_ a death threat. So you should have no problem with law enforcement officers bearing arms as part of their duties then. Or if 5,000 people who supported the BLM also just happened to show up bearing arms. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/188 "2014-04-14T20:41:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You can do a whole lot of property damage without crossing the all-important line into violence against persons. Exactly. Like standing in the way of a dump truck. The Kent State protesters didn’t deserve to die, and neither did the Bundy protestors, with the possible exception of Mr. Soldier of Fortune on the overpass. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/189 "2014-04-14T20:44:39Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > So you should have no problem with law enforcement officers bearing arms as part of their duties then. Or if 5,000 people who supported the BLM also just happened to show up bearing arms. Exactly. This is my point. Law enforcement should carry arms to defend themselves. And civilians who want to should have that same right. Neither side was threatening anyone simply by being armed. Just like neither side was threatening to kick anyone simply by wearing boots. It takes something more than simply possessing the means to hurt someone to be a threat. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/190 "2014-04-14T20:49:49Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Actually, there’s a pic of one of the nitwits taking up a position on the overpass at the link above. It’s a good cover spot, with lots of bystanders, so the BLM agents were smart to back off. > > I’d say that they’ll need to close off easy approaches like that for future problems of this nature. If any gun-totin’ redneck tried anything like that I can assure you that it would turn ugly, fast. (I saw footage last summer from Arkansas of the member of some group - I forget what they call themselves - that apparently despises law enforcement. The cop’s “dash cam” showed someone being pulled over for a relatively innocuous offense. After what seemed to be a relatively civil exchange between the two parties the cop went off-camera [thankfully] at which point the automobile driver’s teenage son whipped out a rifle of some kind and shot the cop dead. The man [not surprisingly] quickly drove off. Cut to footage of the vehicle - not moving - in a mall parking lot with LOTS [and I do mean LOTS] of law enforcement around and an aerial shot of the teenage boy dead in the passenger seat [along with, I can only assume, his father]. I envision a similar outcome if any of those gun-totin’ rednecks in Nevada try anything so stupid as to shoot at a federal agent unprovoked) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/191 "2014-04-14T20:51:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Of course not. But if one of the armed protesters fired at the feds for doing their job, I have no problem with the feds firing back. I agree. I also believe that if the feds shot first that the 2nd amendment and natural law say the civilians can protect themselves from an unlawful federal action. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/192 "2014-04-14T20:53:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Bearing arms on someone else’s land for the purpose of making it more difficult to be removed from that land is an implicit threat of force against the landowner and his agents. > > Like the gun folks say, you don’t take out a gun unless you are willing to use it. I’m not a gun type myself, so I have to take them at their word. Precisely. I don’t buy the “it’s not against the law to exercise your right to bear arms” argument. Those people could’ve gone there by themselves with no firearms and still made their feelings known. They chose not to which was escalating matters in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/193 "2014-04-14T20:54:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree. I also believe that if the feds shot first that the 2nd amendment and natural law say the civilians can protect themselves from an unlawful federal action. Perhaps. But those gun-totin’ rednecks would’ve gotten the worst of it, though. I can almost 100% guarantee you that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/194 "2014-04-14T20:58:07Z")
Probably not in the first engagement. No one can beat the law if the law is determined, but it’s not unusual, as in Waco, for the law to come with too little at first. But the winner of the battle aside, the war would be lost by the government. RIght now, an ever expanding federal government is troublesome in theory. Start gunning down citizens over grazing fees, and it becomes a lot more real. We’ve already got a constitutional convention about to become a reality. Imagine what kind of amendments limiting the power of the governmnet would rise in the face of a federal massacre over a regulatory dispute. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/195 "2014-04-14T21:02:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > About this dog you don’t have? I didn’t fuck it, and it sure wasn’t great! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/196 "2014-04-14T21:02:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Start gunning down citizens over grazing fees, and it becomes a lot more real. Strawman so big there’s no grass left to graze on. > [@adaher](#): > > We’ve already got a constitutional convention about to become a reality. Cite from a cite that doesn’t drool, please. > [@](#): > > Imagine what kind of amendments limiting the power of the governmnet would rise in the face of a federal massacre over a regulatory dispute. Imagine having an imagination this unfettered by reality. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/197 "2014-04-14T21:03:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree. I also believe that if the feds shot first that the 2nd amendment and natural law say the civilians can protect themselves from an unlawful federal action. The 2nd Amendment neither says nor implies anything of the kind by the broadest conceivable interpretation, and natural law does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/198 "2014-04-14T21:08:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Probably not in the first engagement. No one can beat the law if the law is determined, but it’s not unusual, as in Waco, for the law to come with too little at first. > > But the winner of the battle aside, the war would be lost by the government. RIght now, an ever expanding federal government is troublesome in theory. Start gunning down citizens over grazing fees, and it becomes a lot more real. We’ve already got a constitutional convention about to become a reality. Imagine what kind of amendments limiting the power of the governmnet would rise in the face of a federal massacre over a regulatory dispute. I don’t want to hear about it. People who complain about “expanding government” are lying frauds. “Big guvmint” seems to work just _fine_ for them when it suits what they feel are _their_ needs. For evidence I present the Terri Schiavo case. Seems to me that the people who often call for “small government” sure didn’t want it to be “small” in that case! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/199 "2014-04-14T21:10:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Strawman so big there’s no grass left to graze on. We were talking about a theortical situation in which the feds fired first and the protesters fired back. If you’re saying that the idea of the feds firing first is extremely ridiculous, that makes me happy. > [@](#): > > Cite from a cite that doesn’t drool, please. Fox drools, but their logic is sound: two thirds of the states have called for a convention: [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/02/rare-option-forcing-congress-to-meet-change-constitution-gains-momentum/](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/02/rare-option-forcing-congress-to-meet-change-constitution-gains-momentum/) ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/200 "2014-04-14T21:11:24Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It certainly sounds to me that a lot of people in this thread are disappointed that the government didn’t crack down on these “yokels” who had the audacity to practice their first and second amendment rights for a cause the poster doesn’t personally agree with. I think the argument is that most of us don’t think the demonstrators were there simply to practice their first and second amendment rights. They were there to prevent government employees from doing their jobs. The BLM was there to remove 900+ cattle from government land, pursuant to a valid court order, and the Bundy supporters were there to prevent them from doing so. Where’s the first amendment right to stop lawful government actions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=11)