# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/221 "2014-04-15T00:47:24Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > @BrainGlutton– > > If he thinks the feds are going to seize him or his property the second he appears in public, he won’t appear in public without some of his dippy supporters (armed) in the vicinity to “protect” him/property. Any attempt at seizure therefore results in an opportunity for bloodshed, and certainly any move on the real property (Bundy’s home, barns, whatever) is almost guaranteed to be ugly. > > Beyond that, he’s got 14 kids, most or all of them adults and most of them living on/near his ranch. If one of the kids sells some cattle at auction, are you going to seize the kid’s assets, not being sure or the source, or let Junior sell Daddy’s cattle under Junior’s name and funnel the money back to Daddy in private? Add in some of the other supporters, and I am certain there are a bunch of people willing to act as Bundy’s nominee. > > The only way to guarantee no bloodshed is for the feds to give up any effort to seize anything. Then bloodshed it is. This sort of libertarianism can’t be allowed to pass. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/222 "2014-04-15T00:54:46Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > @BrainGlutton– > > If he thinks the feds are going to seize him or his property the second he appears in public . . . They needn’t wait for him to appear in public, they can just slap liens on his property, bury him in court-papers, and tell the IRS to flag his tax returns for body-cavity-search-level audits. That’s the American Way. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/223 "2014-04-15T00:59:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They needn’t wait for him to appear in public, they can just slap liens on his property, bury him in court-papers, and tell the IRS to flag his tax returns for body-cavity-search-level audits. That’s the American Way. 😃 He doesn’t recognize that the federal government exists. Why would he file a tax return? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/224 "2014-04-15T01:27:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > He doesn’t recognize that the federal government exists. Why would he file a tax return? Is he actually that extreme? I heard him speak in a radio interview, and, while he sounded confused and a bit stupid, he didn’t sound quite that crazy. He was going on about how he had inherited the right to graze land, as if somehow a rental contract never expired and was heritable forever. (Gee, can I try that on my landlord? “I inherited the right to stay here, so you can never evict me, even if I stop paying rent.”) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/225 "2014-04-15T01:51:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Is he actually that extreme? He [certainly is.](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/) > [@](#): > > His personal grievance with federal authority doesn’t stop with the BLM, though. “I believe this is a sovereign state of Nevada,” Bundy said in a radio interview last Thursday. “I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But I don’t recognize the United States government as even existing.” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/226 "2014-04-15T01:55:28Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > And the OP itself lamented the government back down, as if refusing to do violence to your own citizens is a sign of weakness or something. This is the attitude against which I’m arguing in this thread. You wanna quote me where I said anything about how the government should have used violence? Could you fucking post that quote? No? THEN STOP TALKING OUT OF YOUR ASS. Please. Most of your posts seem to indicate that you either don’t know much at all about this or you are deliberately trying to skew the conversation by carefully selecting which details you include or omit. But now that you’ve started to actually put words into my mouth (text into my posts, whatever) and seemingly now want to ascribe motive and method to me while ADMITTING you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about (“or something”? Is that how you plan to try and profess plausible deniability?) is really annoying. When come back, bring facts. For a guy who claims to have no dog in this fight, you’re sure spreading a lot of dogshit with your posts and that shit’s gotta come from somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/227 "2014-04-15T01:59:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > He [certainly is.](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/) OMG, he doesn’t acknowledge the US exists?? And so many are willing to follow this guy to their graves. I weep. Sort of. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/228 "2014-04-15T02:03:21Z")
Frankly, given the fervor of the nuts, I’m not entirely sure there’s ANY way to avoid “emboldening” them — I don’t see why a successful government action against this guy wouldn’t just inspire passion in them to fight against the “government tyranny.” So if it’s a choice between emboldening them by giving in and emboldening them by moving against them with a non-zero probability of gunfire and blood, I’m not sure I can blame a decision for the former. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/229 "2014-04-15T03:02:00Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > He [certainly is.](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/) Whee-oo! Thank you! He sounded more rational in the radio interview. This is “freeman of the land” level crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/230 "2014-04-15T03:04:47Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > This is the closest they came to threatening violence. But I think it falls shy of an actual threat. It was rhetoric. Pointing your gun at federal agents isn’t “rhetoric”, it’s a threat. [ > [@](#): > > **With rifles pointing toward each side** and tensions reaching a critical level, federal land officials backed off and agreed to give up the cattle to Bundy’s family and supporters. > > The mid-afternoon release by the Bureau of Land Management was hailed as a victory among **supporters who had forced the closure of Interstate 15 after marching to the holding pen on the sides of the highway** , although environmentalists condemned the agency’s decision. ]([BLM releases Bundy cattle after protesters block southbound I-15 | Bundy-BLM | News](http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/blm-releases-bundy-cattle-after-protesters-block-southbound-i-15)) These were criminals who, through show of force, got what they wanted. The feds should have called in more feds, not backed down. Unless, and I admit this is an attractive possibility, they got lots of those folks on camera and can now go after them all one at a time for closing the highway, threatening federal agents, etc. Make no mistake, I don’t think all people who break the law are also by definition wrong. But these folks are rallying to a false cause and lying, to themselves and/or to others, about a lot things but especially their cause: they aren’t trying to take the country back, they are trying to take the country. The feds, or any governmental body, cannot allow such groups to flourish, and backing down from them will encourage their proliferation. And Cliven Bundy, a man who espouses that point of view, that he isn’t beholden to any government he decides he doesn’t want to be beholden to, while still enjoying all the benefits of living under said government, was allowed to become their rallying point and potential martyr. Lotta fuckups on the part of the feds here tactically and PR-wise, no doubt, but trying to stop Mr. Bundy from participating in the extinction process of the desert tortoise by grazing his cattle without permit or recompense isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/231 "2014-04-15T03:36:01Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Pointing your gun at federal agents isn’t “rhetoric”, it’s a threat. If anyone still thinks that these were “innocent protestors” and not “armed thugs prepared to kill federal agents”, [have a look at the picture atop this article at The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/). ETA: BTW, the article is a good read; it showcases Mr. Bundy’s disconnected and self-contradictory views and claims. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/232 "2014-04-15T03:40:14Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If anyone still thinks that these were “innocent protestors” and not “armed thugs prepared to kill federal agents”, [have a look at the picture atop this article at The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/). A friend on Facebook is already claiming false flag government agent plant. “If he were real, he’d BE DEAD.” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/233 "2014-04-15T03:41:59Z")
Forgot to say thanks for bringing that article to our attention, **BobLibDem**. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/234 "2014-04-15T03:55:09Z")
Whoa, whoa, what is this, amateur hour? Everyone knows this is the path to true political change. 1. Writing letters to your representatives. 2. Blogging. 3. Non-violent demonstrations, like camping in a park. 4. March around carrying signs (don’t forget that clever wordplay, that’s critical). 5. Driving slow in the fast lane. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/235 "2014-04-15T04:26:59Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > OMG, he doesn’t acknowledge the US exists?? And so many are willing to follow this guy to their graves. I weep. > > Sort of. Hey, you got to make allowances, he’s a Nevadan! “Whatever happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/236 "2014-04-15T04:29:32Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Whoa, whoa, what is this, amateur hour? Everyone knows this is the path to true political change. > > 1. Writing letters to your representatives. > 2. Blogging. > 3. Non-violent demonstrations, like camping in a park. > 4. March around carrying signs (don’t forget that clever wordplay, that’s critical). > 5. Driving slow in the fast lane. Errmmm, OK. And **then** can we burst the capitalist integument and expropriate the expropriators? Pretty please with puppy-eyes? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/237 "2014-04-15T04:36:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Whee-oo! Thank you! He sounded more rational in the radio interview. This is “freeman of the land” level crazy. Nitpick, that’s [“Freeman **on** the Land,”](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman-on-the-land) but no less crazy for that. See also [“Sovereign Citizen.”](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen) The ideology of both movements appears to be based on a confused understanding of Anglo-American common law, which exists, confused and conflated with “natural law,” which does not. “Natural law” would of course be eternal and unchangeable by legislation or court decisions, which the common law is nothing but. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/238 "2014-04-15T04:40:28Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If anyone still thinks that these were “innocent protestors” and not “armed thugs prepared to kill federal agents”, [have a look at the picture atop this article at The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/the-irony-of-cliven-bundys-unconstitutional-stand/360587/). 😕 Is that thing coming out of his gunstock a rifle-barrel or some kind of extra-surreal hentai tentacle?! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/239 "2014-04-15T06:08:25Z")
**BrainGlutton** : it’s a crack in the concrete wall, and he’s aiming through it. (Unless I’m looking at a different hentacle.) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/240 "2014-04-15T10:07:45Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Please distinguish between simply having a gun on your person, and “taking it out” as if to use it. > > Having a firearm is not a threat. Brandishing or pointing it at someone is. The former is not wrong, the latter is except in cases of self-defense, where someone else threatened you first. > > I maintain that the protesters who simply brought weapons to a protest (weapons there is a good chance they carry every day, like a pocket knife), weren’t threatening anyone. [The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/13/nevada-bundy-cattle-ranch-armed-protesters): > [@](#): > > The heavily armed crowd rallied under a banner that read “Liberty Freedom For God We Stand”. Camouflaged militiamen stood at attention, communicating with earpieces. You’re right, their guns were incidental, they were not acting like a citizen army or anything. :dubious: Look, when you expect a confrontation with the law, and you bring a gun to it, that’s an implicit threat. If you want to make sure a confrontation with the law doesn’t escalate, then you leave the gun at home. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=13)