# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/261 "2014-04-15T16:25:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Nevertheless, it is not only inarguable but painfully obvious. I recall a clip from a documentary about how, back in the '60s, the Black Panthers walked fully armed into a session of the California state legislature. They were making no actual threats with their weapons (and in fact had simply walked into the wrong room by mistake), but the legislators certainly and reasonably perceived it as a threat and some dove under their desks, as any sensible person would have, in that situation. This is all about intent and perception. Many of the gun control laws in America have been passed after black Americans were seen exercising their right to possess and carry firearms during times of conflict and confrontation. Many white people were certainly threatened by this, but I would argue that that the intent behind the act of carrying firearms was more often not to threaten, but to provide self defense in threatening situations. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/262 "2014-04-15T16:35:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m trying to parse this claim. > > The legislatures have passed, the governor has signed, and the courts have approved, legislation which grants an individual the legal right to carry a firearm. > > What other steps are necessary before a person may legitimately carry? None, apparently. But as BobLibDem (and I) mentioned earlier, just because one is _allowed_ to openly carry firearms anywhere one goes doesn’t necessarily mean one _should_. To some, apparently, there is no difference. Others of us have more sense than that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/263 "2014-04-15T16:36:05Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > He’s not disputing the legality of carrying. He’s disputing the wisdom of it. Sure, some states have passed laws that it’s legal to carry a firearm into a bar. Doesn’t mean it’s a wise decision. Does management get to hang a “No Firearms Allowed on Premises” sign and enforce it? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/264 "2014-04-15T16:36:23Z")
@BrainGlutton: Most of us file tax returns because it’s the law, and we generally obey the law because it makes for a more pleasant existence. Why would he file the tax return? He doesn’t recognize the federal government as having any legitimacy at all–why would he obey “laws” from a nonexistent government? He doesn’t fear the IRS or the marshals coming out to his ranch, because he doesn’t recognize their legitimacy and so would be authorized, in his mind, to use deadly force against any attempt to seize his property or his records (and I’m sure he’s got kids and supporters who would help man the ramparts). He’s self-employed, so there’s no HR department to automatically withhold the government’s share from his paycheck. He’s probably not keeping much money in banks, either–that’s part of the ideology. “Sovereign citizens” are frequently tax protesters; see, e.g., [the Browns in New Hampshire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown), who hadn’t paid taxes for a decade before Uncle Sam came after them. The federal marshals there eventually captured the couple through a ruse (undercover officers pretending to be supporters), and found their home was littered with explosives, booby traps, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/265 "2014-04-15T16:38:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does management get to hang a “No Firearms Allowed on Premises” sign and enforce it? Yep. Private property rights trump free carry. Think of it as a “dress code.” “No shirts, no shoes, gun - no service.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/266 "2014-04-15T16:52:31Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Yep. Private property rights trump free carry. Think of it as a “dress code.” > > “No shirts, no shoes, gun - no service.” You sure about that? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/267 "2014-04-15T17:39:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You sure about that? In Kansas at least, yes. Kansas Administrative Regulation 16·11·7 (b): “No license issued pursuant to or recognized under the personal and family protection act shall authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any building other than a state or municipal building if the building is conspicuously posted with signs that include the graphic in the document titled “buildings other than state and municipal buildings: signage adopted by the Kansas attorney general,” dated June 20, 2013, which is hereby adopted by reference.” --this implements the provisions of Kansas Statute 75-7c10. That sign is a big red circle with a slash over the silhouette of a handgun. See [the Kansas Attorney General’s webpage](http://ag.ks.gov/public-safety/concealedcarry/signage-regulations) for details. Carrying a concealed weapon into a marked building is not a criminal violation, but under the law the owner is authorized to remove violators from the premises. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/268 "2014-04-15T17:41:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You sure about that? Just got finished a round of searching and it seems like it’s the case. Apparently, most states carve out exceptions for this when writing the laws. Even Mississippi’s law, which I think is currently the most lax regarding restrictions, allows businesses to disallow guns. Just for reference, found an SDMB thread from 2011. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=623293](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=623293) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/269 "2014-04-15T18:04:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cites and specifics, please? The only one I can think of is a situation where the cop is both dirty and out to kill you, which is extremely rare. [http://bigstory.ap.org/article/texas-deputy-slaying-suspect-thought-he-was-victim](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/texas-deputy-slaying-suspect-thought-he-was-victim) > [@](#): > > DALLAS (AP) — A Central Texas man accused of capital murder for killing a sheriff’s deputy thought someone was breaking into his home when he grabbed his rifle and opened fire, the suspect’s attorney said Monday. > > Henry Goedrich Magee gunned down Sgt. Adam Sowders on Thursday while Sowders and other investigators executed a search warrant, the Burleson County Sheriff’s Office said. A district attorney described the warrant as being drug-related. > **[Texas Grand Jury Declines to Indict Pot Grower Who Shot and Killed a Cop...](https://reason.com/2014/02/07/texas-grand-jury-declines-to-indict-pot/)** > > Jacob SullumThis week a Texas grand jury declined to indict a marijuana grower for shooting and killing a sheriff's deputy who burst into his home in the > [@](#): > > This week a Texas grand jury declined to indict a marijuana grower for shooting and killing a sheriff’s deputy who burst into his home in the early morning to execute a search warrant. Henry Goedrich Magee, who was indicted on drug and weapon charges (the latter only because he was growing marijuana), said he believed Burleson County Sgt. Adam Sowders was a burglar. “This was a terrible tragedy that a deputy sheriff was killed, but Hank Magee believed that he and his pregnant girlfriend were being robbed,” Magee’s lawyer, Dick DeGuerin, told A.P. “He did what a lot of people would have done. He defended himself and his girlfriend and his home.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/270 "2014-04-15T18:08:15Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > [http://bigstory.ap.org/article/texas-deputy-slaying-suspect-thought-he-was-victim](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/texas-deputy-slaying-suspect-thought-he-was-victim) > > [Texas Grand Jury Declines to Indict Pot Grower Who Shot and Killed a Cop During an Early-Morning Raid](http://reason.com/blog/2014/02/07/texas-grand-jury-declines-to-indict-pot) So in his mind he was shooting at a burglar, not a law enforcement officer? Skirts the issue, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/271 "2014-04-15T18:10:58Z")
It takes a special kind of logic to say “Hmmm… I’ll be going to a protest of the actions of dozens of armed federal authorities. It will be broad daylight with hundreds of people around me. Guess I need to bring my best weaponry.” ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/272 "2014-04-15T18:18:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cites and specifics, please? The only one I can think of is a situation where the cop is both dirty and out to kill you, which is extremely rare. [This is from New Jersey](http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/criminal/charges/justif002.pdf), but it’s my understanding that other states have similar rules: > [@](#): > > A person may not, however, resist any arrest he/she knows is being made by an officer in the performance of the officer’s duties, whether the arrest is legal or illegal, unless that officer uses unlawful force. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/273 "2014-04-15T18:29:14Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I can’t help but wonder whose side these armed rebels would take if a crowd of armed Native Americans started stopping vehicles to “ask questions” about their ancestral rights. I’ll go so far as to say they’d show up with their own guns ready to blaze down some darkies. I can’t help but wonder how the posters here would report on a group of armed Native Americans facing off against the government? I’ll go so far as say they’d post about the evils of an overarching government that is abusing protestors. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/274 "2014-04-15T18:47:59Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It takes a special kind of logic to say “Hmmm… I’ll be going to a protest of the actions of dozens of armed federal authorities. It will be broad daylight with hundreds of people around me. Guess I need to bring my best weaponry.” I agree, but I have more patience for someone who legally brings a rifle to a protest and doesn’t brandish it, and especially doesn’t point it at anyone, than for the rock and Molotov cocktail throwing members of the Occupy crowd. The Bundy protest/standoff may possibly have ended peacefully because of the mutually assured destruction scenario resulting from both sides being armed with lethal force, as opposed to events [like this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhX8K5cQkp8#t=170). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/275 "2014-04-15T19:00:06Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > In Kansas at least, yes. > > Kansas Administrative Regulation 16·11·7 (b): “No license issued pursuant to or recognized under the personal and family protection act shall authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any building other than a state or municipal building if the building is conspicuously posted with signs that include the graphic in the document titled “buildings other than state and municipal buildings: signage adopted by the Kansas attorney general,” dated June 20, 2013, which is hereby adopted by reference.” --this implements the provisions of Kansas Statute 75-7c10. > > That sign is a big red circle with a slash over the silhouette of a handgun. See [the Kansas Attorney General’s webpage](http://ag.ks.gov/public-safety/concealedcarry/signage-regulations) for details. Carrying a concealed weapon into a marked building is not a criminal violation, but under the law the owner is authorized to remove violators from the premises. If he dares. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/276 "2014-04-15T19:00:37Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > The Bundy protest/standoff may possibly have ended peacefully because of the mutually assured destruction scenario resulting from both sides being armed with lethal force, as opposed to events [like this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhX8K5cQkp8#t=170). OR they could have stayed home and let the authorities do their job, which would have been both legal _and_ a damn sight safer. They very idea that an armed and unruly mob backing up a law-breaking freeloader strikes some sort of “balance” with law enforcement officials doing what is legally expected of them is rather sick, in my opinion. The lawbreaker has no right to confront the law with equal force. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/277 "2014-04-15T19:03:01Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > [http://bigstory.ap.org/article/texas-deputy-slaying-suspect-thought-he-was-victim](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/texas-deputy-slaying-suspect-thought-he-was-victim) > > [Texas Grand Jury Declines to Indict Pot Grower Who Shot and Killed a Cop During an Early-Morning Raid](http://reason.com/blog/2014/02/07/texas-grand-jury-declines-to-indict-pot) The first case apparently has not been dismissed, the second case was a sort of pre-emptive “jury pardon,” and I seen nothing in either to indicate the defendant would have had any actual legal defense based on mistaken identity, which would be pretty damned narrow loophole anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/278 "2014-04-15T19:04:28Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I can’t help but wonder how the posters here would report on a group of armed Native Americans facing off against the government? I’ll go so far as say they’d post about the evils of an overarching government that is abusing protestors. No, I think we’d simply regret that it came to this, without in any way defending their right to confront government agents with arms. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/279 "2014-04-15T19:05:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The first case apparently has not been dismissed, the second case was a sort of pre-emptive “jury pardon,” and I seen nothing in either to indicate the defendant would have had any actual legal defense based on mistaken identity, which would be pretty damned narrow loophole anyway. It’s the same case. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/280 "2014-04-15T19:32:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > OR they could have stayed home and let the authorities do their job, which would have been both legal _and_ a damn sight safer. They very idea that an armed and unruly mob backing up a law-breaking freeloader strikes some sort of “balance” with law enforcement officials doing what is legally expected of them is rather sick, in my opinion. The lawbreaker has no right to confront the law with equal force. I am saying that these two contrasting cases exemplify Heinlein’s maxim that a well armed society is a polite one, not that the outcome in Nevada was positive. I agree with the OP as to the moral hazard issue here, but I am also glad that there was no shooting. It’s a case of no good options. It comes down to this: If we can not enact and enforce regulations covering the shared use of public lands and areas, we can not continue to have public lands and areas. That goes for illegal protest campgrounds on college campuses and in parks, as well as trespass cattle on BLM land. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=15)