# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/321 "2014-04-15T21:57:21Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I already stated that was the correct decision in this case. Only from a certain point-of-view (that of not shedding blood over a relatively innocuous transgression). From the point-of-view that LAWBREAKERS should not be allowed to get away with BREAKING THE LAW in the hope of maintaining SOME semblance of civility within our society I would say that I’m not so sure that you’re right on that count. I am certain that that story’s ending hasn’t yet been written. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/322 "2014-04-15T22:07:13Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > Only from a certain point-of-view (that of not shedding blood over a relatively innocuous transgression). From the point-of-view that LAWBREAKERS should not be allowed to get away with BREAKING THE LAW in the hope of maintaining SOME semblance of civility within our society I would say that I’m not so sure that you’re right on that count. I am certain that that story’s ending hasn’t yet been written. Your lack of surety is not my concern, but I will help you along. Breaking the law should be dealt with appropriately. Western grazing rights on government land, the issue of people who live on government land, etc. is far more complicated than “he stole a million dollars from the people.” I live on leased land in my primary residence, and I own land adjacent to national forest for my vacation residence. Through my secondary property, I am very aware of when you can, and can not, count on the continuation of government support in the country. Through my primary property, I deal with valuation of improvements to this land and how that might be dealt with by the land owners. Its complicated, as the Facebook status might state. Entire Western states economies are often built around use of government land. The government sells mineral rights, and takes them away. They allow logging, and then disallow it. Grazing is allowed, and then there is concern. If you shut down the grazing, then you have killed a business that generates tax revenue and jobs in the area. There might be long-term, historical uses of the property that the government has ignored. You can run into homesteading laws, Native American treaties, the concept of wetlands, etc. Bundy has been fighting the Feds it appears for a decade or more on the issue of his grazing. It will head back to the courts, and I agree that liens, etc. are the best way to deal with this. When he sells his herd, you put a hold on the money. Maybe he will go a step further and only sell for gold coins or something - but sooner or later he has to exist in the modern world - and there the government has better power than the gun. Good job to administration for not going off half-cocked and turning this into another Waco or Ruby Ridge where jumping the gun created more death and pain than was ever prevented. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/323 "2014-04-15T22:20:24Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Your lack of surety is not my concern, but I will help you along. Breaking the law should be dealt with appropriately. Western grazing rights on government land, the issue of people who live on government land, etc. is far more complicated than “he stole a million dollars from the people.” > > I live on leased land in my primary residence, and I own land adjacent to national forest for my vacation residence. Through my secondary property, I am very aware of when you can, and can not, count on the continuation of government support in the country. Through my primary property, I deal with valuation of improvements to this land and how that might be dealt with by the land owners. Its complicated, as the Facebook status might state. > > Entire Western states economies are often built around use of government land. The government sells mineral rights, and takes them away. They allow logging, and then disallow it. Grazing is allowed, and then there is concern. If you shut down the grazing, then you have killed a business that generates tax revenue and jobs in the area. There might be long-term, historical uses of the property that the government has ignored. You can run into homesteading laws, Native American treaties, the concept of wetlands, etc. > > Bundy has been fighting the Feds it appears for a decade or more on the issue of his grazing. It will head back to the courts, and I agree that liens, etc. are the best way to deal with this. When he sells his herd, you put a hold on the money. Maybe he will go a step further and only sell for gold coins or something - but sooner or later he has to exist in the modern world - and there the government has better power than the gun. > > Good job to administration for not going off half-cocked and turning this into another Waco or Ruby Ridge where jumping the gun created more death and pain than was ever prevented. So it looks like you and I can agree on ONE thing, at least: that it’s good that this didn’t (or at least hasn’t, yet) degrade into another Ruby Ridge or Waco situation. But those people cannot be allowed to flout the law the way they have. I understand that the law can be somewhat confusing at times (to say the least) but lawbreakers should be punished and there should be no exceptions to that. I, too, hope that the federal government finds ways to get what they want out of Cliven Bundy without having to resort to violence. That still doesn’t change my view that the people coming to his defense escalated matters in a way that they didn’t have to and I have a feeling that people like that will meet their end in a way that they wish they wouldn’t all because of their love of modern day weaponry and their desire to display theirs. It’s a shame, but when people like that meet a violent end all I can say is: “One can only figure that he had it comin’ to him.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/324 "2014-04-16T00:43:15Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > But it’s not an everyday thing. And it is RARELY something that is ordered at the federal level in this country. Since J. Edgar passed, at any rate . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/325 "2014-04-16T00:46:10Z")
Flashing on the PBS documentary [_Making Sense of the Sixties_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318906/) scene with a formation of Black Panthers chanting: Revolution is come! **Off the pigs!** Time to take up the gun! **Off the pigs!** [repeats] But they never did really off the pigs, though some got offed by them . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/326 "2014-04-16T01:46:42Z")
[Tea Partier compares Cliven Bundy confrontation to Tiananmen Square massacre.](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/14/tea-party-rep-says-un-american-cattle-roundup-reminds-her-of-tiananman-square/) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/327 "2014-04-16T02:37:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Flashing on the PBS documentary [_Making Sense of the Sixties_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318906/) scene with a formation of Black Panthers chanting: > > Revolution is come! > **Off the pigs!** > Time to take up the gun! > **Off the pigs!** > [repeats] > > But they never did really off the pigs, though some got offed by them . . . Actually, there were several cases of Black Panthers ambushing police officers, mostly in Oakland, but for the most part they were a bunch of clowns who fell apart really quickly who were popular amongst a lot of spoiled white leftists but despised by most of the people they supposedly represented. For anyone interested a book I highly recommend is Hugh Pearson’s autobiography of Huey Newton. [http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Of-The-Panther-America/dp/0201483416/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397615766&sr=8-1&keywords=Shadow+of+a+Panther](http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Of-The-Panther-America/dp/0201483416/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397615766&sr=8-1&keywords=Shadow+of+a+Panther) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/328 "2014-04-16T03:05:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For anyone interested a book I highly recommend is Hugh Pearson’s autobiography of Huey Newton. > > [http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Of-The-Panther-America/dp/0201483416/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397615766&sr=8-1&keywords=Shadow+of+a+Panther](http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Of-The-Panther-America/dp/0201483416/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397615766&sr=8-1&keywords=Shadow+of+a+Panther) Biography, I should think. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/329 "2014-04-16T03:14:06Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Biography, I should think. I never saw them in a room together… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/330 "2014-04-16T03:50:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually, there were several cases of Black Panthers ambushing police officers, mostly in Oakland . . . Never heard that; from what I’ve heard, their tactic for preventing police brutality against blacks (a serious problem in those days, and for many days after, remember Rodney King) was to **follow** the police cars around Oakland in their own cars, armed, and, whenever the cops made a stop or an arrest, the Panthers would stop and get out, holding their rifles and glaring meaningfully, sending the unspoken message, “You’d damned well better play this by the book, pigs!” but never (that I heard of) actually interfering. So, if it was all right for Bundy’s supporters to do what they did, then it was all right for the Panthers to do that – right? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/331 "2014-04-16T03:55:56Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Biography, I should think. D’oh! Thanks for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/332 "2014-04-16T04:05:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Never heard that; from what I’ve heard, their tactic for preventing police brutality against blacks (a serious problem in those days, and for many days after, remember Rodney King) was to **follow** the police cars around Oakland in their own cars, armed, and, whenever the cops made a stop or an arrest, the Panthers would stop and get out, holding their rifles and glaring meaningfully, sending the unspoken message, “You’d damned well better play this by the book, pigs!” but never (that I heard of) actually interfering. Romanticized bullshit. That’s not by the way meant as an attack you, but yeah that was the kind of crap they liked to pretend, though the cops were vastly worse back then than they are now. In fact Eldridge Cleaver, one of their leaders has since freely admitted to deliberately ambushing cops. [http://colemantruth.net/kate1.pdf](http://colemantruth.net/kate1.pdf)(warning PDF). For those who haven’t heard of him, Eldridge Cleaver was the author of Soul On Ice. A brilliant, well-written book by a man put in prison for deliberately raping a number of white women to protest racism after initially practicing on a number of black women. He never in the book showed any guilt or remorse or even a trace of empathy for the women he raped and to give people an idea how different the 60s were, lots of my teachers were actually required to read him in college. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/333 "2014-04-16T04:21:42Z")
As long as we live in a functional democracy, this sort of shit is not acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/334 "2014-04-16T04:26:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > As long as we live in a functional democracy, this sort of shit is not acceptable. **Which** sort of shit? We’ve covered a great many in the thread so far. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/335 "2014-04-16T05:06:20Z")
This is kind of funny – I guess because it is from disinfowars. Apparently, [there _is_ a solar project not far from Bunkerville](http://www.infowars.com/flashback-sen-reid-breaks-ground-for-nevada-solar-farm-near-bundy-ranch/). The CT goes on. Of course, I am the only person who sees any irony in the story. Cliven Bumdy says he has claim to the public land because of tradition: his ancestors ran cattle there, so he is just continuing in their footsteps. Yet, here he is being threatened by this First Solar Inc project, being pushed by that dastard Harry Reid. And a bunch of Paiutes. But, fuck them, Bumdy has _ancestral rights_ to the land, who the hell do they think they are, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/336 "2014-04-16T05:52:31Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > You would be wrong in your reading. You would be poor in your posting, then, because that is indeed the impression you are giving. If you do not intend that, you should prolly start working hard on your writing and communication skills. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/337 "2014-04-16T06:42:10Z")
> [@For You](#): > > This is kind of funny – I guess because it is from disinfowars. Apparently, [there _is_ a solar project not far from Bunkerville](http://www.infowars.com/flashback-sen-reid-breaks-ground-for-nevada-solar-farm-near-bundy-ranch/). The CT goes on. > > Of course, I am the only person who sees any irony in the story. Cliven Bumdy says he has claim to the public land because of tradition: his ancestors ran cattle there, so he is just continuing in their footsteps. Yet, here he is being threatened by this First Solar Inc project, being pushed by that dastard Harry Reid. And a bunch of Paiutes. But, fuck them, Bumdy has _ancestral rights_ to the land, who the hell do they think they are, anyway? I’m not sure if this post is sarcasm or parody or something else, but the notion that the Moapa Southern Paiute Solar Project is somehow nefarious or even tangentially involved in the Bundy situation is wrong. It is factually incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/338 "2014-04-16T13:33:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Never heard that; from what I’ve heard, their tactic for preventing police brutality against blacks (a serious problem in those days, and for many days after, remember Rodney King) was to **follow** the police cars around Oakland in their own cars, armed, and, whenever the cops made a stop or an arrest, the Panthers would stop and get out, holding their rifles and glaring meaningfully, sending the unspoken message, “You’d damned well better play this by the book, pigs!” but never (that I heard of) actually interfering. Perhaps, rather than relying on what you’ve “heard,” you should [research the issue](http://reason.com/archives/1986/02/01/an-interview-with-eldridge-cle/1)? From Eldridge Cleaver’s interview with Reason magazine: > [@](#): > > REASON: Did the Panthers try to provoke violence? Was that part of the strategy?Cleaver: Sure it was part of the strategy. It was using the theories of revolutionary violence. A lot of people don’t like to give us credit, but in America you had some of the best-educated revolutionaries in the world—even better-educated than some successful revolutionaries in other countries. We studied the experiences of these other countries and we knew the theories of guerrilla warfare and Marxism and Leninism and people’s war, and we definitely were not sitting back waiting for the authorities to attack us. We used to lie about it, because the information was a weapon also. We would go out and ambush cops, but if we got caught we would blame it on them and claim innocence. I did that personally in the case I was involved in. > > REASON: The Bobby Hutton case? > > Cleaver: Yes. We went after the cops that night, but when we got caught we said they came after us. We always did that. When you talk about the legacy of the '60s, that’s one legacy. That’s what I try to address, because it helped to distort the image of the police, but I’ve come to the point where I realize that our police department is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/339 "2014-04-16T15:02:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps, rather than relying on what you’ve “heard,” you should [research the issue](http://reason.com/archives/1986/02/01/an-interview-with-eldridge-cle/1)? From Eldridge Cleaver’s interview with Reason magazine: It’s not clear what he means by “ambush.” Were shots fired? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/340 "2014-04-16T15:18:00Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’m not sure if this post is sarcasm or parody or something else… I’m not seeing how you could read it as anything other than sarcastic. It’s not even a whoosh; it hit you right in the forehead and you still couldn’t tell. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=18)