# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/341 "2014-04-16T15:30:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s not clear what he means by “ambush.” Were shots fired? Lord no, if you do this, we’re likely to have six pages defining ambush. Yes, shots were fired, coming from the Panthers’ side first according to the cops. Cleaver admits attacking them. [http://colemantruth.net/kate1.pdf](http://colemantruth.net/kate1.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/342 "2014-04-16T16:58:49Z")
So if these guys were black they would have gotten shot?:dubious: > [@SteveKasian](#): > > Wrong; that’s just how things work in your head, not here. Did this guy ever come back? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The government views it as unpaid fees, not theft. Absent some other crime (like fraud), we don’t even stick you in jail for failure to pay your taxes. They might get a lien on your home and everything you own but they don’t throw you in jail to get youto pay. If you lie then they throw you in jail no matter how much you pay (or at least they’re supposed to but rich people seem to operate under a different set of rules these days). > [@steronz](#): > > Cows consume a lot of water, which, if coming from an aquifer, is essentially a non-renewable resource. There’s not a lot of water in Nevada, and the articles make mention of irrigation pipes and improvements that Bundy had been making to the land. I know it’s trendy to downplay the environmental impact of grazing, but it’s more than just some grass that grows back. Whiskey’s for drinking, water’s for fighting. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m wondering why this “It isn’t worth shooting people over” mantra is only being chanted towards the government side of this debate? Because we are discussing the government reaction to the yahoos who showed up with guns. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > I, for one, do not agree. These radical extremists showed up armed to the teeth, clearly meant to intimidate duly authorized public servants. The threat of violence was real. If you show up armed to a confrontation with the federal government, you are not so much showing a willingness to kill but a willingness to die. You don’t “win” a shootout with the feds. > [@DrCube](#): > > Arming yourself is not threatening force. For either side. _Threatening force_ is threatening force. Whichever side does that first is wrong. Its still pretty stupid. > [@racepug](#): > > That’s right. Just because the 2nd Amendment allows those people to carry firearms doesn’t mean that they _had_ to bring them with them in this case. The fact that they did tells me that they didn’t all come with “peaceful” intentions. If they came with non-peaceful intentions then why didn’t they show up and open fire? I didn’t read that even a single round was fired. These guys are 90% bluster and 10% “if you back me into a corner I might fire rather than drop my weapon and throw my hands in the air” A good example is this one relatively well known gun rights guy on youtube that started talking about taking people out if they came for his guns. The state of Tennessee[?] saw the video and determined that he was not fit to have firearms so they came and took his weapons. He meekly gave them up and issued “aww shucks I didn’t mean it” sort of apologies on youtube and eventually got his guns back. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Given that only one side had any business being armed in the first place, unless the feds opened fire first and indiscriminately, I’d likely side with the feds. Of course, if they fired first then I would assign a degree of blame to the feds. Why does only one side have any business being armed? And why would you only assign a degree of blame? > [@scabpicker](#): > > Seriously, look at the pic at the link above. He’s pointing that rifle at something. I’m imagining he has the other people on the bridge to thank for his being alive. If they hadn’t been there, I can’t imagine a situation where he’d be allowed to leave with his rifle, at the very least. They probably didn’t even know he was there. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Is that thing coming out of his gunstock a rifle-barrel or some kind of extra-surreal hentai tentacle?! He has a quad rail. It is 4 picatinny rails that enclose the barrel and you can use install accessories using the little notches as an anchor. It looks like he has attached a flashlight to the bottom rail > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **Which** sort of shit? We’ve covered a great many in the thread so far. Trying to stop government actions by force. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/343 "2014-04-16T17:04:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Why does only one side have any business being armed? > > And why would you only assign a degree of blame? Because federal agents have the right to be armed. The clueless protesters that showed up to defend the deadbeat thief were just there to stir up trouble. They could just as easily have been unarmed and spewing the same nonsense and they wouldn’t have put anyone in danger. I would only assign a degree of blame because the protesters had no business showing up packing heat. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/344 "2014-04-16T17:16:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Because federal agents have the right to be armed. The clueless protesters that showed up to defend the deadbeat thief were just there to stir up trouble. They could just as easily have been unarmed and spewing the same nonsense and they wouldn’t have put anyone in danger. > > I would only assign a degree of blame because the protesters had no business showing up packing heat. "Because American citizens have the right to be armed. The clueless federal agents that showed up to harass a rancher were just there to stir up trouble. They could just as easily have been unarmed and spewing the same bluster and they would’t have put anyone in danger. I would only assign a degree of blame because the agents had no business showing up packing heat." Now I don’t necessarily agree with that. But you’re still basing your argument on the idea that government agents have more of a right to be armed than citizens. And that’s simply not the case. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/345 "2014-04-16T17:21:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Because federal agents have the right to be armed. The clueless protesters that showed up to defend the deadbeat thief were just there to stir up trouble. They could just as easily have been unarmed and spewing the same nonsense and they wouldn’t have put anyone in danger. > > I would only assign a degree of blame because the protesters had no business showing up packing heat. The Bureau of Land Management should be armed? I don’t agree with the sovereign citizen movement, but when we’re arming EPA agents and giving the Dept. of Education a SWAT team, it’s going to get some people justifiably concerned about the government’s intentions. Or, one could just say that the government fears the citizenry, which is the way things are supposed to be I guess. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/346 "2014-04-16T17:25:08Z")
Considering someone’s been setting off pipe bombs at BLM offices I don’t blame BLM agents weaponing up. All this gun nuttery is why we can expect various government agencies developing their own paramilitary units. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/347 "2014-04-16T17:30:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The Bureau of Land Management should be armed? I don’t agree with the sovereign citizen movement, but when we’re arming EPA agents and giving the Dept. of Education a SWAT team, it’s going to get some people justifiably concerned about the government’s intentions. > > Or, one could just say that the government fears the citizenry, which is the way things are supposed to be I guess. I suppose they deal with hostile parties on a regular basis and thus should be armed. Even though the latest Supreme Court ruling went the other way, I don’t subscribe to the idea that the individual has the right to be armed. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/348 "2014-04-16T17:35:09Z")
The basis for the government being armed isn’t protection, it’s enforcement, and the federal government lacks a general police power, meaning its non-military agents have no particular right to be armed. You can justify arming them for self-protection, but if they have that right, so does everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/349 "2014-04-16T19:07:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The basis for the government being armed isn’t protection, it’s enforcement, and the federal government lacks a general police power, meaning its non-military agents have no particular right to be armed. > > You can justify arming them for self-protection, but if they have that right, so does everyone else. FBI, Secret Service, ATF, DEA, Federal Marshall’s, etc… These are not examples of federal police power? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/350 "2014-04-16T19:14:50Z")
Just because you have a right to something doesn’t mean you _should_ do something. I have to side with Martin Hyde on this one. A firefight between the Feds and protesters would be the worst possible outcome for the Government. They would gain little and lose a hell of a lot. They would lose from a political standpoint, from a PR standpoint, from an economic standpoint (how many millions would be spent fighting god knows how many lawsuits?). It was a lose-lose situation for the feds. And stupid, as better remedies have already posted in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/351 "2014-04-16T19:19:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The basis for the government being armed isn’t protection, it’s enforcement, and the federal government lacks a general police power, meaning its non-military agents have no particular right to be armed. > > You can justify arming them for self-protection, but if they have that right, so does everyone else. Lack of a general police power does not equate to lack of any police power. The BLM, for example, administers federal property, and… > [@SCOTUS](#): > > The general government doubtless has a power over its own property analogous to the police power of the several states, and the extent to which it may go in the exercise of such power is measured by the exigencies of the particular case. Which derives from the Constitution: > [@Article Four](#): > > The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/352 "2014-04-16T20:01:15Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > FBI, Secret Service, ATF, DEA, Federal Marshall’s, etc… > > These are not examples of federal police power? Specific police powers. Not general [police power](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_power). ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/353 "2014-04-19T06:22:40Z")
Re: > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Bearing arms is only a death threat _when the arms are used to threaten_, never by itself. and: > [@DrCube](#): > > Bullshit. Preparing a defense isn’t a threat. _Pointing_ guns at people is a threat. Sorry if this has already been mentioned; I’ve only read through Post #120 or so. There are photos of the protesters aiming. [Article in Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/) with photo. [Article on Breitbartunmasked (Sorting through the mess he left behind)](http://www.breitbartunmasked.com/latest-news/billionaire-koch-brothers-afp-endorses-patriot-militia-movement-at-bundy-ranch/) site. Scroll down a ways for photo. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/354 "2014-04-20T04:36:54Z")
So, they just block I-15 NB, and people think it is OK? People just wandering around on the freeway? How was this handled by the state patrol? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/355 "2014-04-21T12:05:29Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Re: > > and: > Sorry if this has already been mentioned; I’ve only read through Post #120 or so. > > There are photos of the protesters aiming. > > [Article in Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/) with photo. > > [Article on Breitbartunmasked (Sorting through the mess he left behind)](http://www.breitbartunmasked.com/latest-news/billionaire-koch-brothers-afp-endorses-patriot-militia-movement-at-bundy-ranch/) site. Scroll down a ways for photo. Well, that one guy was aiming, anyway…not sure he counts as “the protestors”. Anyhoo, it’s completely unacceptable, and criminal, to do what that guy was doing. That doesn’t make it any more true that _bearing_ arms, as opposed to brandishing them, is a death threat. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/356 "2014-04-21T12:23:50Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, that one guy was aiming, anyway…not sure he counts as “the protestors”. Anyhoo, it’s completely unacceptable, and criminal, to do what that guy was doing. That doesn’t make it any more true that _bearing_ arms, as opposed to brandishing them, is a death threat. Were any of the people around him trying to talk him out of it? Did any of them run away from this “lone gunman”? Did any of those people standing around him call 911? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/357 "2014-04-21T12:54:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Were any of the people around him trying to talk him out of it? Did any of them run away from this “lone gunman”? Did any of those people standing around him call 911? That would only define whether they were accomplices or witnesses, not whether or not what he was doing was illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/358 "2014-04-21T12:55:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Were any of the people around him trying to talk him out of it? Did any of them run away from this “lone gunman”? Did any of those people standing around him call 911? I’ve no idea…the photo in the second link, which is the same man from a different angle, just shows a lot of people taking his picture, and no other protestors in his immediate area (unless the photographers were protestors instead of journalists, which seems unlikely). The first article gave his name, some light Googling didn’t turn up answers to any of your questions. If he was trolling to get his picture everywhere, and some street cred in the patriot/militia/asshole movement, he succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/359 "2014-04-21T13:02:57Z")
Just because [this particular media foible](http://www.idahostatesman.com/2014/04/16/3137145/rocky-barker-even-idaho-militia.html?sp=/99/101/) amuses me… > [@](#): > > Who is Parker? He is the man lying in the prone position on a bridge overlooking the confrontation Friday, aiming an AR-15 at federal law enforcement agents. To the media, any rifle that’s black and has a pistol grip is an AR-15. Parker was actually weilding an AK of some kind, or a Saiga. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/360 "2014-04-21T13:15:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The basis for the government being armed isn’t protection, it’s enforcement, and the federal government lacks a general police power, meaning its non-military agents have no particular right to be armed. “Police power” has nothing to do with arming officials. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=19)