# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/361 "2014-04-21T15:13:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The Bureau of Land Management should be armed? Are they not citizens, with the right to be armed? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/362 "2014-04-21T16:13:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Are they not citizens, with the right to be armed? It hadn’t occurred to me that the BLM employees may have just been exercising their 2nd Amendment rights to carry their own weapons with them while on the job. Do we know if this is the case, or did the BLM issue guns with the requirement that they carry them? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/363 "2014-04-21T16:41:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The basis for the government being armed isn’t protection, it’s enforcement, and the federal government lacks a general police power, **meaning its non-military agents have no particular right to be armed.** Cite? And I mean to a court case; no one else could pronounce on that question. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/364 "2014-04-21T18:35:14Z")
A different take on Cliven Bundy: [His claim is absurd, but challenging property law is not.](http://www.salon.com/2014/04/21/cliven_bundy_got_one_thing_right_his_claim_is_absurd_but_challenging_property_law_is_not/) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/365 "2014-04-21T18:50:08Z")
I’d comment that his claim is absurd, but challenging the federal government’s ownership of a mind-boggling [**76.1%**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Public-Lands-Western-US.png) of the state of Nevada isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/366 "2014-04-21T19:11:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’d comment that his claim is absurd, but challenging the federal government’s ownership of a mind-boggling [**76.1%**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Public-Lands-Western-US.png) of the state of Nevada isn’t. Why is that? It’s empty land. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/367 "2014-04-21T19:40:07Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Why is that? It’s empty land. It obviously has some economic utility, given the dispute over grazing. Beyond that, though, in a federal union of sovereign states, the federal government should only own portions of the states that are necessary for its functions. When Nevada is only sovereign over 24% of the territory that’s within its borders, something’s not quite right. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/368 "2014-04-21T20:10:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It obviously has some economic utility, given the dispute over grazing. > > Beyond that, though, in a federal union of sovereign states, the federal government should only own portions of the states that are necessary for its functions. When Nevada is only sovereign over 24% of the territory that’s within its borders, something’s not quite right. Been to Nevada? Not, that is, a weekend in Vegas, but have you seen much of the state? There are vast, I mean really big swaths of sand, dust and scrub. No one really _wants_ to own most of that land. Miners are typically happy to lease, dig and leave. Ranchers are happy to pay grazing fees to run their herds across public rangeland (except for one jerk). The state is more-or-less “sovereign” over all its territory, they have just ceded management of most of that orphan open space to this big organization that has a mutual interest in maintaining it. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/369 "2014-04-21T20:13:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Why is that? It’s empty land. Is that how it appears from your window seat on the plane? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/370 "2014-04-21T20:17:16Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Is that how it appears from your window seat on the plane? How does it appear to you (from your window seat on the airplane or where ever you are looking from)? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/371 "2014-04-21T20:24:59Z")
I don’t understand why there is so much debate here. IMO. sometimes after Waco, Federal policy toward addressing large groups of armed citizens changed. It was determined that the political cost of a large scale shootout between citizens and Federal officers was too high to risk, except perhaps in some extreme cases that we haven’t seen yet. This was not an occasion worth killing people over, whether they were idiot citizens or federal law enforcement officers. So the feds backed off. They can afford to wait until the mobs go home, the tension falls away, and the one rancher can be – arrested, served with papers, whatever – dealt with without the additional risks. Personally, I don’t have any problem with this. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/372 "2014-04-21T21:26:08Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It obviously has some economic utility, given the dispute over grazing. > > Beyond that, though, in a federal union of sovereign states, the federal government should only own portions of the states that are necessary for its functions. When Nevada is only sovereign over 24% of the territory that’s within its borders, something’s not quite right. As it currently sits, much of the federal land in Nevada has negative economic utility. Aside from active military bases and the Nellis gunnery range, There’s the test site and Yucca Mountain. The feds will never get rid of those site (and the state doesn’t want them - it has an advise-and-consent role in the management and risk assessments of that land without being ultimately responsible for its disposal. Much of the federal land in southern Nevada that’s outside of the test site is subject to use restrictions because of endemic threatened and endangered species - in addition to the desert tortoise that initially drove this issue, the Desert National Wildlife Refuge complex has four fish, seven plants, an insect, and three bird species listed under the Endangered Species Act. Transferring that land out of federal management doesn’t alleviate any of the land owner’s conservation obligations. The feds are currently managing those habitats, but the state would be responsible for that (very expensive) conservation management if those lands were transferred. There are other threatened and endangered species throughout the state - sage grouse, lahontan cutthroat trout, cui-ui, leopard frogs… The state manages a lot of critical habitat, but they certainly don’t want to take on more. It’s true that an enormous amount of the state that’s managed by the BLM or the Forest Service, but for the most part the land is a resource-sparse area with occasional mineral deposits or forests. It costs time and money to manage it effectively - more money than user fees bring in. Nevada is full of amazing landscapes, and I love it, but its federal lands are by no means a gold mine\*. \*Aside from the occasional actual gold mine. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/373 "2014-04-22T03:23:56Z")
Nevada has more different species of animals and plants than any other state in the union, IIRC. This is a result of any range of hills or mountains being different from any other, even a range just a (geographic) handful of kilometers away. Chipmunks at Wheeler Peak are different from the chipmunks at Mount Potosi, for instance, since populations are effectively isolated from other populations. So yeah, there’s a lot of endangered flora and fauna simply because we have more kinds of flora and fauna. And as you rightly point out, **Enginerd** , it takes money and effort to actually manage the land, money that the state of Nevada doesn’t have and cannot raise. As for the high percentage of land within Nevada that is owned by the federal government, well, that was part of the conditions of statehood. The state of Nevada exists because the federal government allowed it to be created. Part of the state constitution directly contradicts the shit that was spewing out of the cowboy mouths last week, too: > [@Nevada State Constitution](#): > > Purpose of government; paramount allegiance to United States.  All political power is inherent in the people[.] Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair[,] subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existance [existence], and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority. Asking if the federal government should control all that land in Nevada is a non-question, IMO, since the federal government has owned this land since before Nevada was created. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/374 "2014-04-22T04:28:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > . . . Asking if the federal government should control all that land in Nevada is a non-question, IMO, since the federal government has owned this land since before Nevada was created. (Clipped from an entirely excellent post.) Yep: the Constitution is silent on what proportion of the land “should” be controlled by the states. The very word “should” opens the issue to anyone’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/375 "2014-04-22T05:56:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (Clipped from an entirely excellent post.) Yep: the Constitution is silent on what proportion of the land “should” be controlled by the states. The very word “should” opens the issue to anyone’s opinion. Some writer contributing to the droolwars site tried to make the case that the constitution limits _how_ the federal government can control land [QUOTE=Article I §8.17] _8.17 To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings_ [/QUOTE] His claim was that managing land in ways not spelled out explicitly in this clause is not authorized. Of course, if he had continued reading, up to Article IV§3, perhaps he might had refrained from making himself look stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/376 "2014-04-22T12:20:57Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Been to Nevada? Not, that is, a weekend in Vegas, but have you seen much of the state? There are vast, I mean really big swaths of sand, dust and scrub. No one really _wants_ to own most of that land. Miners are typically happy to lease, dig and leave. Ranchers are happy to pay grazing fees to run their herds across public rangeland (except for one jerk). The state is more-or-less “sovereign” over all its territory, they have just ceded management of most of that orphan open space to this big organization that has a mutual interest in maintaining it. > [@Enginerd](#): > > As it currently sits, much of the federal land in Nevada has negative economic utility. Aside from active military bases and the Nellis gunnery range, There’s the test site and Yucca Mountain. The feds will never get rid of those site (and the state doesn’t want them - it has an advise-and-consent role in the management and risk assessments of that land without being ultimately responsible for its disposal. > > Much of the federal land in southern Nevada that’s outside of the test site is subject to use restrictions because of endemic threatened and endangered species - in addition to the desert tortoise that initially drove this issue, the Desert National Wildlife Refuge complex has four fish, seven plants, an insect, and three bird species listed under the Endangered Species Act. Transferring that land out of federal management doesn’t alleviate any of the land owner’s conservation obligations. The feds are currently managing those habitats, but the state would be responsible for that (very expensive) conservation management if those lands were transferred. > > There are other threatened and endangered species throughout the state - sage grouse, lahontan cutthroat trout, cui-ui, leopard frogs… The state manages a lot of critical habitat, but they certainly don’t want to take on more. It’s true that an enormous amount of the state that’s managed by the BLM or the Forest Service, but for the most part the land is a resource-sparse area with occasional mineral deposits or forests. It costs time and money to manage it effectively - more money than user fees bring in. Nevada is full of amazing landscapes, and I love it, but its federal lands are by no means a gold mine\*. > > \*Aside from the occasional actual gold mine. The state of Nevada [amended their constitution](http://ballotpedia.org/Ordinance,_Nevada_Constitution) in 1956 to remove the grant of unappropriated public lands to the federal government, and [passed a law in 1996](http://watchdogwire.com/nevada/2013/05/17/nevada-again-trying-to-take-control-of-its-federal-public-lands/) asking Congress to grant the state ownership of federal land in their state. It certainly seems like Nevadans, through their elected officials, want to own that land. Why should their request be refused? > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Nevada has more different species of animals and plants than any other state in the union, IIRC. This is a result of any range of hills or mountains being different from any other, even a range just a (geographic) handful of kilometers away. Chipmunks at Wheeler Peak are different from the chipmunks at Mount Potosi, for instance, since populations are effectively isolated from other populations. So yeah, there’s a lot of endangered flora and fauna simply because we have more kinds of flora and fauna. And as you rightly point out, **Enginerd** , it takes money and effort to actually manage the land, money that the state of Nevada doesn’t have and cannot raise. > > As for the high percentage of land within Nevada that is owned by the federal government, well, that was part of the conditions of statehood. The state of Nevada exists because the federal government allowed it to be created. Part of the state constitution directly contradicts the shit that was spewing out of the cowboy mouths last week, too: > Asking if the federal government should control all that land in Nevada is a non-question, IMO, since the federal government has owned this land since before Nevada was created. > [@Trinopus](#): > > (Clipped from an entirely excellent post.) Yep: the Constitution is silent on what proportion of the land “should” be controlled by the states. The very word “should” opens the issue to anyone’s opinion. It’s not a non-question to the people of Nevada, evidently. And all states after the original 13 exist because the federal government allowed them to, there’s nothing unique about Nevada in that respect. I’m not suggesting the federal ownership is unconstitutional, just troubling. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/377 "2014-04-22T12:23:50Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Been to Nevada? Not, that is, a weekend in Vegas, but have you seen much of the state? There are vast, I mean really big swaths of sand, dust and scrub. No one really _wants_ to own most of that land. Miners are typically happy to lease, dig and leave. **Ranchers are happy to pay grazing fees to run their herds across public rangeland (except for one jerk).** The state is more-or-less “sovereign” over all its territory, they have just ceded management of most of that orphan open space to this big organization that has a mutual interest in maintaining it. Something I’ve been wondering… is it really just this one guy, or are there ranchers all over the state doing this? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/378 "2014-04-22T13:09:43Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Something I’ve been wondering… is it really just this one guy, or are there ranchers all over the state doing this? From what I’ve read, the other ranchers pay their grazing fees. But Bundy thinks he’s special and doesn’t have to pay, and because he’s a member of The Brotherhood Of The Gun, the tightie righties are solidly behind him. So apparently taking from the government is only a problem if you’re say a single mom with a low paying job. If you’re a millionaire rancher, get your hands in the government trough and pull out whatever you can! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/379 "2014-04-22T13:11:47Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Is that how it appears from your window seat on the plane? Pretty much. I have spent a few days in Reno but have mostly seen the vast emptiness that is Nevada from the air. So there’s a shitload of empty desert, which is common in the west. The land isn’t good for much and doesn’t even have the water to support development. If it has to stay empty, why not in federal hands? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/380 "2014-04-22T13:57:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The state of Nevada [amended their constitution](http://ballotpedia.org/Ordinance,_Nevada_Constitution) in 1956 to remove the grant of unappropriated public lands to the federal government, and [passed a law in 1996](http://watchdogwire.com/nevada/2013/05/17/nevada-again-trying-to-take-control-of-its-federal-public-lands/) asking Congress to grant the state ownership of federal land in their state. > > It certainly seems like Nevadans, through their elected officials, want to own that land. Why should their request be refused? Why should it be granted? Are they going to pay for the land? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=20)