# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/501 "2014-04-25T22:33:49Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I think you can use “the” until it’s determined there’s more than one. I sense there might be a problem with “the” negro. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/502 "2014-04-25T23:23:55Z")
Bundy seems to think thst slavery was some kind of job. It was not. It was a sentence. A life sentence. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/503 "2014-04-25T23:40:01Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Now Mr. Bumdy has a nice black boy, and a jar-head at that, saying Cliven is not racist (text included here so that you can avoid going to the site). > [@](#): > > One thing he definitely isn’t – a racist. I found his comments to not only be NOT racist, but his own view of his experiences. Who the heck are we to determine another man’s perspective on the world around him?! Just because Picasso’s view of the world was abstract, does it negate the fact that his art was genuine? Well, either you like Picasso or you don’t . . . > [@](#): > > Bottom line is that we are all slaves in this waning republic, no matter our skin color. RWs say that a lot, and you know what? They’re **right!** Unfortunately, they are also hopelessly confused as to the identity of our masters. Think Wall Street, not Washington. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/504 "2014-04-26T00:06:22Z")
All these militia types occupying Bundy’s “Tripwire,” what do they normally do for a living? They aren’t all on welfare & disability are they? Pot farmers? Too liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/505 "2014-04-26T00:22:07Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > All these militia types occupying Bundy’s “Tripwire,” what do they normally do for a living? I don’t really get what they’re doing. The Feds took the cows (cattle, whatever), Bundy’s posse turned up and for better or worse, the Feds returned the cows. What’s the militia doing (other then churning out embarassing quotes in front of the news cameras). Guarding the cows the Feds already gave back? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/506 "2014-04-26T00:54:57Z")
What bothers me about this, besides the fact that a racist ignoramus has been breaking the law for two decades and getting away with it, is that this incident apparently vindicates a sacred redneck belief: that if you have enough guns – and especially if you have enough redneck friends with guns – you don’t have to obey the law. The promulgation of this kind of belief is not going to end well. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/507 "2014-04-26T01:04:59Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > What’s the militia doing (other then churning out embarassing quotes in front of the news cameras). Guarding the cows the Feds already gave back? Barbecue! Big, big barbecue. (I mean, what else do you do when you have too many beeves?) > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > RWs say that a lot, and you know what? They’re **right!** > > Unfortunately, they are also hopelessly confused as to the identity of our masters. Think Wall Street, not Washington. TBCF, they are at least half-right. Wall Street could not control the country nearly as well as they do less the abetting of the government. I guess one could say they are half-RWs. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/508 "2014-04-26T03:27:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Ronald Reagan owns Cliven Bundy.](http://www.salon.com/2014/04/25/ronald_reagan_owns_cliven_bundy_hes_born_of_gop_racial_and_anti_government_hostility/) Wow, that was an excellently researched and written article. Thanks for linking that, **BG**. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’ve already labeled it Schmuck Dynasty in my head. Ooooooooh I’m totally using that! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/509 "2014-04-26T03:34:22Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > What bothers me about this, besides the fact that a racist ignoramus has been breaking the law for two decades and getting away with it, is that this incident apparently vindicates a sacred redneck belief: that if you have enough guns – and especially if you have enough redneck friends with guns – you don’t have to obey the law. The promulgation of this kind of belief is not going to end well. Aye, that was the impetus for the creation of this thread, actually. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/510 "2014-04-26T04:49:33Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I don’t really get what they’re doing. The Feds took the cows (cattle, whatever), Bundy’s posse turned up and for better or worse, the Feds returned the cows. > > What’s the militia doing (other then churning out embarassing quotes in front of the news cameras). Guarding the cows the Feds already gave back? Is that a paying conservative Republican job? I wouldn’t mind having that job. I wouldn’t have to put up with Jews, blacks, women and gays telling me what to do. It is Koch certified American non-Jew but secretly Jew type job, right? ---
**Author:** ![katpohl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b782af/32.png) [@katpohl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katpohl)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/511 "2014-04-26T12:29:55Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It was right there in the > > I don’t understand. When/if I owe the government some money, they don’t bring out armed men with helicopters to take my stuff. What made _this_ bill so damned important that they had to go to all this trouble? > > If it was money – garnish Bundy’s checks. If it was that they wanted to use the land for other purposes now – put up a fence. Why provoke a riot? It is common practice to use helicopters to gather large herds of cattle when they are running on large tracts of open range. When the open ranges are mostly mountains , ranch hands riding horseback are used on the ground . If the open range are mostly flatlands, then four wheelers are used on the ground. IMO As for the BLM being armed , they were reacting to Bundy’s actions . > [@](#): > > In media interviews, Bundy used the language of the sovereign citizen movement as a rallying call, beckoning support from members of the Oath Keepers, the White Mountain Militia and the Praetorian Guard. In early April, armed individuals and private militia members from across the United States joined peaceful protesters against the trespass cattle roundup in what has become known punningly as the Battle of Bunkerville. BLM enforcement agents were dispatched in response to what was seen as threatening statements by Bundy, such as calling the events a “range war”. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy\_standoff#Confrontations\_and\_protests\_in\_April\_2014](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff#Confrontations_and_protests_in_April_2014) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/512 "2014-04-26T16:51:32Z")
Frankly I suspect the people most pissed at him are the other ranchers in the area. How would any of us feel if we’d been obeying the law and paying our grazing fees and taxes all these years and then find out Bundy’s been refusing to do so and has, at least for now, gotten away with it. Granted, I know Christians love the story of the prodigal son, but I always felt for and identified with the good son in the story who’d done his duty all his life, made sacrifices his whole life and then finds his idiot, irresponsible brother getting all the praise. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/513 "2014-04-26T20:00:59Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Which ones? > > Again, I’m calling it like I see it. It looks to me like either a property dispute, or just a dispute over an unpaid bill with the federal government. Which all seems like a fairly workaday bill collection problem the government deals with daily. > > The issue was when people show up in support of the debtor, and the government sicks dogs on them, tazes them and deprives them of their rights to speech and assembly. > > So my only “dog” is that I’m an outside observer, who appears to have observed rights violations on the part of my government towards a harmless, if loudmouthed, petty trespasser. Well, as was once observed, a million here, a million there, and pretty soon you’re talking real money! Seriously, I cannot for the life of me get how this guy, and the Ted Nugents of the world, see themselves as patriots and ‘law and order’ guys at the same time they essentially declare anarchy and ‘the law of the gun’. How the right has morphed in my lifetime! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/514 "2014-04-26T20:18:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Aye, that was the impetus for the creation of this thread, actually. I’ve mostly ignored this thread since I last commented, but I still think the government responded perfectly appropriately. The only proof I need is in that no innocent people have been shot and killed, no Federal agents have been shot and killed. This shows the wisdom of judicious restraint when there is no immediate need for action. If the government had showed such restraint a lot of dead kids in Waco, TX would have gone on to live out the rest of their lives. The action to round up and remove the cattle is a civil one, and is particularly less justifiably an action where you start shooting people (at least at Waco and Ruby Ridge they were trying to execute arrest warrants.) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/515 "2014-04-26T20:26:49Z")
The dead in Waco are 100% the responsibility of the Branch Davidians. It’s too bad the kids were killed but their blood is not on the government’s hands. With this racist freeloading whack-a-doodle gun nut Bundy, it’s important that the government gets its grazing fees and that those that threatened the BLM officers get charged with whatever law would apply. This case shows the hypocrisy of the right- if a single mom gets welfare it’s appalling, when a millionaire rancher decides to welsh on his grazing fees to the tune of a million dollars he’s some kind of super patriot. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/516 "2014-04-26T20:36:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The dead in Waco are 100% the responsibility of the Branch Davidians. It’s too bad the kids were killed but their blood is not on the government’s hands. I don’t actually care about who we blame, one set of decisions results in dead kids, the other results in…what? Picking David Koresh up when he next went into town? The problem with Waco was the tactics, I don’t want to argue (or care about) the argument concerning right or wrong. Dumb tactics can be used in support of the legally correct action. I’m assuming you would concede examples that involve more sympathetic individuals (to a liberal like yourself), such as the Philadelphia police actually dropping a bomb on a black group’s building, is an example where the government acting monstrously in its tactics? Whether you admit it or not, I have a certainty that you’re fine with dead Texans in Waco but find it despicable that the mayor of Philadelphia blew up a building full of black extremists, because like all SDMB posters of the liberal bent you don’t believe in hypocrisy. > [@](#): > > With this racist freeloading whack-a-doodle gun nut Bundy, it’s important that the government gets its grazing fees and that those that threatened the BLM officers get charged with whatever law would apply. This case shows the hypocrisy of the right- if a single mom gets welfare it’s appalling, when a millionaire rancher decides to welsh on his grazing fees to the tune of a million dollars he’s some kind of super patriot. What does collection of grazing fees have to do with confronting a bunch of assembled persons with guns? In an area where they have a general legal right to be, and in which carrying firearms openly is not a crime? Government has large owed fees from all sorts of people, you can collect on them through normal civil actions. Clive Bundy doesn’t keep cattle for his health, just put a lien on them and he will either unprofitably keep them until they die of natural causes to spite the government or he will eventually have to sell them and the government collects money at that time. Likewise put a lien on his real estate, as he will be unlikely to escape payment of that even in death. This is very similar to Waco or Ruby Ridge or the Philadelphia MOVE bombing in that the government had no real pressing need to act in a certain way. Government can do lots of things it shouldn’t do, there’s no public safety concern and I don’t see how a violent confrontation advances any legitimate public interest in this scenario. I’m not sure at what level this decision was made, but I give major props to the Federal officials involved as it shows they have learned how to respond to things rationally. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/517 "2014-04-26T21:05:02Z")
I do agree with you that the government acted rationally by backing down in this situation. The idiots taking up positions to cover the people trying to prevent the Government from rounding up Bundy’s cattle made a situation where it was difficult for anyone to “win”, and a shootout at that time was not inevitable. However, the BLM agents in question were trying to stop a crime in action, as the cattle weren’t being rounded up from Bundy’s property, but from land they weren’t allowed to graze. I imagine this means they’ll have to remove the cattle again, or let Bundy keep grazing them there. If they don’t remove them, the judicial system starts to lose meaning. So, this may eventually become a situation where a shootout is closer to inevitable. To that end, I hope they come up with a way to deal with the types of cowards who would openly discuss using their wives as human shields, preferably one that works better than letting the perpetrator have it their way for weeks. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/518 "2014-04-26T21:13:09Z")
I went and looked at the Oathkeepers site – one of the vigilante groups Bumdy called for support, which has the most complete site. One of their complaints is that the government is trying to run rural people like farmers and ranchers off the land, a complaint that seems to have some merit and some great fullness of shit. Charging ranchers a heavily subsidized grazing fee (at worst, one sixth of what a private landowner would likely charge) sounds exactly like tyranny and oppression to me. On the other hand, limiting access to the herd that the land is able to support really does sound like they want to keep ranches viable in the long term (kind of the opposite of trying to run people off the land). So, then they get into ESA abuse. That is the evil weapon that the dastardly government is using to hog-tie these poor rural folk. Because the land is there to provide the owner with maximum profitability only, no twinky, tree-huggy greeny restraint may be allowed to get in the way of that. Rural life is hard, I think we can agree to that. When you have Cargill, ADM, Monsanto, et al, looking like they are about to consume the open land, it is hard not to look for who it is threatening your way of life. I just doubt that the quick and easy answers will be the correct ones, no matter how right they sound. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/519 "2014-04-26T21:59:35Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t actually care about who we blame, one set of decisions results in dead kids, the other results in…what? Picking David Koresh up when he next went into town? > What does collection of grazing fees have to do with confronting a bunch of assembled persons with guns? In an area where they have a general legal right to be, and in which carrying firearms openly is not a crime? Government has large owed fees from all sorts of people, you can collect on them through normal civil actions. > > Clive Bundy doesn’t keep cattle for his health, just put a lien on them and he will either unprofitably keep them until they die of natural causes to spite the government or he will eventually have to sell them and the government collects money at that time. Likewise put a lien on his real estate, as he will be unlikely to escape payment of that even in death. > > This is very similar to Waco or Ruby Ridge or the Philadelphia MOVE bombing in that the government had no real pressing need to act in a certain way. Government can do lots of things it shouldn’t do, there’s no public safety concern and I don’t see how a violent confrontation advances any legitimate public interest in this scenario. > > I’m not sure at what level this decision was made, but I give major props to the Federal officials involved as it shows they have learned how to respond to things rationally. The nut jobs with guns were there to intimidate duly authorized federal agents from seizing property in accordance with a legal order from a Nevada court. If there ain’t a law against that, there should be. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/520 "2014-04-27T00:54:24Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Whether you admit it or not, I have a certainty that you’re fine with dead Texans in Waco but find it despicable that the mayor of Philadelphia blew up a building full of black extremists, because like all SDMB posters of the liberal bent you don’t believe in hypocrisy. Knock it off. We can have this discussion without one poster imputing imagined beliefs to another poster simply to mock. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=27)