# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/581 "2016-01-13T14:41:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps they should have occupied Wall Street. Then it would be a perfectly acceptable tactic, right? I’m sorry **Bricker** , but this thread is about the consequences of caving in to Cliven Bundy. If you’d like to discuss the OWS situation that ended more than 4 years ago, please start a new thread; I’m sure everyone who wants to discuss that will join you there. (Also, this is one of your most pathetic attempts to invoke your usual cry of “liberal hypocrisy” ever.) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/582 "2016-01-16T03:34:22Z")
I saw [this on KOS today: > [@](#): > > And why wouldn’t they? These men feel emboldened because nothing happened to them when they held federal agents at bay in Nevada during the Bundy Ranch standoff. Later in the same live stream, Pete Santilli was bragging that nothing happened because the local sheriff ended up telling federal agents to leave. And they did. And to this day, nobody was ever charged, Cliven Bundy did not pay his $1million+ in back due grazing fees and the BLM land remains open to his cattle today. And that is exactly why Ammon Bundy is trying to rally those same militia-friendly sheriffs to Oregon. ]([Oregon militia supporter calls for locals and outsiders to surround the FBI compound on Saturday](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/01/15/1470408/-Oregon-militia-supporter-calls-for-locals-and-outsiders-to-surround-the-FBI-compound-on-Saturday?detail=facebook)) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/583 "2016-01-16T06:05:41Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’m sorry **Bricker** , but this thread is about the consequences of caving in to Cliven Bundy. If you’d like to discuss the OWS situation that ended more than 4 years ago, please start a new thread; I’m sure everyone who wants to discuss that will join you there. > > (Also, this is one of your most pathetic attempts to invoke your usual cry of “liberal hypocrisy” ever.) Leaving you free to adopt deeply felt, pious principles about how terrible it to lawlessly occupy someone else’s property (in this instance) and equally free to valorize lawlessly occupying someone else’s property in the prior incident, changing pious positions with ease. This is not a tu quoque accusation. It’s an observation that your deeply held principles are flexibly in service to your desired outcome, and therefore you cannot credibly advance any argument that is premised upon your deeply held principles. I think the Bundy crowd is wrong here and should be dealt with. I also thought the Occupy crowd was wrong. See how that works? My positions don’t change based on who is playing the part of the lawless occupier. Try it sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/584 "2016-01-16T07:45:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think the Bundy crowd is wrong here and should be dealt with. I also thought the Occupy crowd was wrong. See how that works? My positions don’t change based on who is playing the part of the lawless occupier. Any sort of equivalency is blown out the window when the Bundyites armed themselves and threatened to shoot federal agents. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/585 "2016-01-16T08:50:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think the Bundy crowd is wrong here and should be dealt with. I also thought the Occupy crowd was wrong. See how that works? My positions don’t change based on who is playing the part of the lawless occupier. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Any sort of equivalency is blown out the window when the Bundyites armed themselves and threatened to shoot federal agents. Indeed, there’s this quote from Martin Luther King’s _Letter from Birmingham Jail_: > [@](#): > > I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law. Details matter on something like this. It’s one thing to protest something, and to subject yourself to the legal consequences to bring attention to your cause, it’s another to threaten to shoot those who come to arrest you. ---
**Author:** ![Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stately_Greek_Automaton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/586 "2016-01-16T23:02:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps they should have occupied Wall Street. Then it would be a perfectly acceptable tactic, right? OWS protesters were [frequently arrested](http://stpeteforpeace.org/occupyarrests.sources.html) whereas the Bundy protests have yet to result in any arrests, so probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2016, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/587 "2016-01-17T04:39:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Leaving you free to adopt deeply felt, pious principles about how terrible it to lawlessly occupy someone else’s property (in this instance) and equally free to valorize lawlessly occupying someone else’s property in the prior incident, changing pious positions with ease. > > This is not a tu quoque accusation. It’s an observation that your deeply held principles are flexibly in service to your desired outcome, and therefore you cannot credibly advance any argument that is premised upon your deeply held principles. > > I think the Bundy crowd is wrong here and should be dealt with. I also thought the Occupy crowd was wrong. See how that works? My positions don’t change based on who is playing the part of the lawless occupier. > > Try it sometime. Hey, why don’t back up what you think I did with a cite that shows I “valorized” OWS? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2016, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/588 "2016-01-17T05:30:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps they should have occupied Wall Street. Then it would be a perfectly acceptable tactic, right? Only if they did the OWS consensus jazz hands. Plus the progressive stack. That’d be a short stack, but still. You could mine for further liberal hypocrisy by noting the left hated the media and the right for characterizing OSW as a bunch of unemployed dirty hippies looking for handouts. Now these brave patriots move to tear down the tyranny that is federally protected nature preserves and all the sudden it’s #YallQaeda and #YeeHawdists. Now excuse me, I have to go be outraged about Ted Cruz stereotyping New Yorkers. ---
**Author:** ![FabioClone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5f8ce5/32.png) [@FabioClone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FabioClone)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/589 "2016-01-18T23:59:31Z")
When white people violently seize federal property and vehicles and threaten law enforcement officers, the correct response is to wait it out. When black people protest police violence, the correct response is to deploy heavily-armed police officers and National Guard in military vehicles to forcibly disperse, arrest, and tear gas them. Basically, the police and these militia guys deserve each other. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/590 "2016-01-19T00:50:57Z")
> [@FabioClone](#): > > When white people violently seize federal property and vehicles and threaten law enforcement officers, the correct response is to wait it out. > > When black people protest police violence, the correct response is to deploy heavily-armed police officers and National Guard in military vehicles to forcibly disperse, arrest, and tear gas them. > > Basically, the police and these militia guys deserve each other. If the public is denied use of this property during a good chunk of the upcoming season, I will agree with you. At this point I am glad that prudence is being used, and that no one is shooting at anyone up there, just like I was glad that instead of going in and busting heads, the police used patience against our local Occupiers when a small portion of one of our nicest parks was confiscated during Occupy Wall Street. Even though I objected to their confiscation, I don’t mind at all that the police waited close to two weeks, and then merely gave out citations, since the level of disruption was minimal. This disruption, on the other hand, is not minimal: [[sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com](http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com): Black Lives Matters Demonstrators Block All Westbound Lanes Of Bay Bridge](Black Lives Matters Demonstrators Block All Westbound Lanes Of Bay Bridge) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/591 "2016-01-19T01:49:23Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > If the public is denied use of this property during a good chunk of the upcoming season, I will agree with you. At this point I am glad that prudence is being used, and that no one is shooting at anyone up there, just like I was glad that instead of going in and busting heads, the police used patience against our local Occupiers when a small portion of one of our nicest parks was confiscated during Occupy Wall Street. Even though I objected to their confiscation, I don’t mind at all that the police waited close to two weeks, and then merely gave out citations, since the level of disruption was minimal. > > This disruption, on the other hand, is not minimal: [[sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com](http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com): Black Lives Matters Demonstrators Block All Westbound Lanes Of Bay Bridge](Black Lives Matters Demonstrators Block All Westbound Lanes Of Bay Bridge) Are you seriously claiming that the freedom of speech should be curtailed if it lengthens peoples commute but is OK when they use firearms and threats of violence? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/592 "2016-01-19T01:58:43Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Are you seriously claiming that the freedom of speech should be curtailed if it lengthens peoples commute but is OK when they use firearms and threats of violence? Haven’t you heard? Guns are speech. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/593 "2016-01-19T02:06:43Z")
Bunch of domestic terrorists the lot of them. Prison and asset seizures for all. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/594 "2016-01-19T02:41:27Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > If the public is denied use of this property during a good chunk of the upcoming season, I will agree with you. At this point I am glad that prudence is being used, and that no one is shooting at anyone up there, just like I was glad that instead of going in and busting heads, the police used patience against our local Occupiers when a small portion of one of our nicest parks was confiscated during Occupy Wall Street. Even though I objected to their confiscation, I don’t mind at all that the police waited close to two weeks, and then merely gave out citations, since the level of disruption was minimal. > > This disruption, on the other hand, is not minimal: [[sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com](http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com): Black Lives Matters Demonstrators Block All Westbound Lanes Of Bay Bridge](Black Lives Matters Demonstrators Block All Westbound Lanes Of Bay Bridge) The news are reporting also that dozens of the protesters were arrested, as they should and as they expected. Of course it has to be noted that if you want to use that as a comparison I can say then that the Bird Putsch guys are getting a preferential treatment from the authorities and I do think that shit needs to end now. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/595 "2016-01-19T04:32:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Are you seriously claiming that the freedom of speech should be curtailed if it lengthens peoples commute but is OK when they use firearms and threats of violence? No one’s freedom of speech was curtailed here. Thousands of people’s freedom of movement was, though. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > The news are reporting also that dozens of the protesters were arrested, as they should and as they expected. > > Of course it has to be noted that if you want to use that as a comparison I can say then that the Bird Putsch guys are getting a preferential treatment from the authorities and I do think that shit needs to end now. It looks like they shut the bridge down during rush hour for an hour and a half. Something like 30,000 people would have passed by in that time. How many people-hours of use has the Oregon occupation prevented the public from enjoying out at the bird sanctuary so far? Any? It’s perfectly reasonable for the urgency of the response to be proportional to the degree of disruption caused by the confiscation of public property by the various occupiers. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/596 "2016-01-19T05:29:27Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > It looks like they shut the bridge down during rush hour for an hour and a half. Something like 30,000 people would have passed by in that time. How many people-hours of use has the Oregon occupation prevented the public from enjoying out at the bird sanctuary so far? Any? Many researchers, conservationists and hunters do want to have a word with you. But clearly you are just happy to go into Red Herring territory. The point was that it was you who claimed that what the BLM did was bad, **and I agree**. I also do think that what the Bird Putsch guys are also wrong and they should be brave enough to be arrested, and face the courts like the BLM people are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/597 "2016-01-19T05:51:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Many researchers, conservationists and hunters do want to have a word with you. Every one of them prevented from using public lands and infrastructure increases the urgency of intervening. I was under the impression than few or no people have been denied use because the place was closed for the winter anyway. > [@](#): > > But clearly you are just happy to go into Red Herring territory. The point was that it was you who claimed that what the BLM did was bad, **and I agree**. I also do think that what the Bird Putsch guys are also wrong and they should be brave enough to be arrested, and face the courts like the BLM people are doing. But they aren’t both equally disruptive. A more rapid intervention on the one that is far more disruptive isn’t evidence of preferential treatment, but a proportional, level headed response. Every minute that the Bay bridge is closed down is equal to days or weeks or months of bird sanctuary occupation in terms of denial of public access to public lands and infrastructure. It’s one of the busiest bridges in the nation. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/598 "2016-01-19T07:00:36Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Every one of them prevented from using public lands and infrastructure increases the urgency of intervening. I was under the impression than few or no people have been denied use because the place was closed for the winter anyway. Not so, the reports I saw tell us that the people working at Malheur were put on **paid** leave early as it was suspected that the militias were going to take the facilities. Monitoring many species and the water reservoir need constant checks. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > But they aren’t both equally disruptive. A more rapid intervention on the one that is far more disruptive isn’t evidence of preferential treatment, but a proportional, level headed response. Every minute that the Bay bridge is closed down is equal to days or weeks or months of bird sanctuary occupation in terms of denial of public access to public lands and infrastructure. It’s one of the busiest bridges in the nation. Well, just keep pressing the point I did agree already, somehow it helps… something I think. In the meantime, the costs are also adding up for actions of the militants: [http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/12/3738570/the-true-victim-of-the-bundy-occupation-is-taxpayers/](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/12/3738570/the-true-victim-of-the-bundy-occupation-is-taxpayers/) > [@](#): > > Although the armed occupiers of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge facility may seem to have done little more than camp out with guns and demand snacks, their continuing occupation is costing taxpayers dearly. > > Local and federal government facilities have had to be closed, keeping public employees unable to complete their work. Harney County, which houses the preserve, schools were closed last week, adding teachers to the list of employees on paid leave and preventing students from learning. Police and security have been brought in to protect the townspeople from the armed militiamen — who have threatened law enforcement and other county officials. The occupied reserve, a valuable tourist attraction for the area, is closed to recreators. All of those costs and losses add up. > > **Cost to the County: $70,000 Per Day** > > Harney County Judge Steve Grasty told outraged community members that he’d send the Bundys a bill for what they’d cost the county — which he estimates to be “$60,000 to $70,000 a day” for the closed schools and government offices and the drastic ramp-up in security. > [@](#): > > \*\* Cost to the Federal Taxpayer: $23,400 Per Day\*\* > > Along with the occupied Malheur National Wildlife Refuge facility, three buildings maintained by the Bureau of Land Management and Forest Service have also shut down because of the security threat to employees. The Bureau of Land Management’s district office in Burns, Oregon alone employs nearly 120 employees — most of whom are now on paid administrative leave. The weekly cost of those workers — who now are unable to work — is about $117,000 per week, or $23,400 per day. > > Not included in this cost are the 50 additional employees at at the refuge center or the Forest Service’s Emigrant Creek Ranger District office. Many of these workers are also on paid leave, which means the actual cost may be even greater. > [@](#): > > **Cost in Lost Recreational Tourism: $40,000 Per Day** > [@](#): > > **Total Cost: $133,400 Per Day** ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/599 "2016-01-19T07:40:53Z")
I don’t disagree with the Bird Refuge occupiers being ultimately held responsible for the costs of the security response, but that is not the same as directly confiscating or blocking access to public property (although it looks like there is a little more of that in Oregon than I was aware of). ---
**Author:** ![FabioClone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5f8ce5/32.png) [@FabioClone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FabioClone)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/600 "2016-01-19T08:23:34Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > If the public is denied use of this property during a good chunk of the upcoming season, I will agree with you. At this point I am glad that prudence is being used, and that no one is shooting at anyone up there, just like I was glad that instead of going in and busting heads, the police used patience against our local Occupiers when a small portion of one of our nicest parks was confiscated during Occupy Wall Street. Even though I objected to their confiscation, I don’t mind at all that the police waited close to two weeks, and then merely gave out citations, since the level of disruption was minimal. > > This disruption, on the other hand, is not minimal: [[sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com](http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com): Black Lives Matters Demonstrators Block All Westbound Lanes Of Bay Bridge](Black Lives Matters Demonstrators Block All Westbound Lanes Of Bay Bridge) As pointed out, many of those protesters were arrested. The situation was resolved in an hour and a half. Meanwhile, these militia are still at it, and are free to come and go as they please? In my view, literally taking up arms against the government is much worse than blocking traffic. I am also glad that the police are not escalating the situation, but I wish their patience and tolerance extended to groups other than crazy white people. I can’t think of any other group of people who would get this kind of treatment. If the BLM protesters had done this, they would have been arrested or shot. If Muslims had done this, it would have been the same, and we might have declared war on another Middle Eastern country by now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=31)