# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/61 "2014-04-14T15:29:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You are willing to see blood shed over this? Look, I recognize the importance of the principle at stake as well as you do, but as a libertarian I already acknowledge that law implies deadly force. Knowing that, we should take care about what laws we pass, because in the end, we have to be willing to kill to enforce them. > > I’m not willing to kill over this, so I agree with the government decision to back down. Where the _hell_ are you getting this “willing to kill” crap from what I said? I never brought up killing, blood shedding, deadly force or any other juvenile violet fantasy scenario running through your mind. Law enforcement was there because laws were being broken, and law enforcement personnel carry weapons-deal with it, because they aren’t about to drop off their weapons at the station before heading out just to stop hissy fits like yours. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/62 "2014-04-14T15:31:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If we allow armed fanatics to disobey whatever laws they don’t feel like obeying, then civilization ceases to exist. Nevada has turned into Somalia. Settle down. It’s not like Bundy’s debts have been forgiven. The BLM will probably begin garnishment proceedings now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/63 "2014-04-14T15:35:45Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > He’s been using government land for many, many years without paying for it. His sudden realization that his family was using it in the 1800’s after he paid for years was awfully convenient for him. At the time, the government didn’t bother to care. > > Now that the government wants it back for some projects they are going to begin working on, they demanded that he stop using their land and took legal action to do so. Honestly, I think they were nice to just round up his cattle. The hard line stance would have been to use them for sniper practice and simply drop the cattle as they left his land. Why not just build a barbed-wire fence along the feds’ side of the property line so his cattle **can’t** get onto it? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/64 "2014-04-14T15:37:35Z")
The feds own hundreds of thousands of square miles of land in Nevada. It would be prohibitively expensive to fence off all their potential grazing land (not to mention they don’t mind people grazing their cattle so long as they pay for it.) ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/65 "2014-04-14T15:38:08Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Yeah, the guy made some minor civil infraction against the bureaucracy. STILL not worth killing a bunch of people over. Put up a fence and forgive the million dollars – sounds like a win/win to me. No, it sounds like “they have guns and bad attitudes, so we’ll let them get away with taking public property for themselves”. It’s certainly not worth shooting people over, but by all means, the government should certainly start enforcing the judgment against him financially and begin shooting his trespassing cattle. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/66 "2014-04-14T15:39:30Z")
> [@SteveKasian](#): > > When the feds come knocking on your door to illegally take your property (which they do indeed do from time to time) and the police won’t come to help you, you are going to wish that there was a citizens militia assembled to protect your rights and property. No, I won’t, because I know what bad things will and should happen to the members of that “militia” if the issue is forced. If what the feds are doing is illegal, that’s a matter for the courts. Not the police, not the “militia,” but the courts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/67 "2014-04-14T15:43:36Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > No, it sounds like “they have guns and bad attitudes, so we’ll let them get away with taking public property for themselves”. > > It’s certainly not worth shooting people over, but by all means, the government should certainly start enforcing the judgment against him financially and begin shooting his trespassing cattle. I’m wondering why this “It isn’t worth shooting people over” mantra is only being chanted towards the government side of this debate? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/68 "2014-04-14T15:43:53Z")
My reason for suggesting perhaps shooting the cattle is it’s a way to avoid shooting people. I’d have safety concerns both for Federal agents and the armed yokels if they started trying to move the rounded up cattle off the land by force as it exposes the Federal agents to violence and they would _have to respond_ to violence with violence to defend themselves. If this was a gang robbing a bank, I’d basically say “you gotta shoot these people.” But, this is someone doing something that people have done for generations on BLM land. I agree with Reagan instituting the fee regime, as the BLM actually expended resources to help maintain land that was damaged by grazers, timber companies, mining companies and etc. It’s only fair that this mostly unoccupied and otherwise unused land be available for public economic use but it’s also only fair that you pay to help maintain it. That being said, to me it puts Bundy’s actions in a different light than a bank robber. His family had been grazing there for a long time (it seems very questionable if it dates back to 1870 as he claims, but it certainly predates the imposition of the fees), and in the grand scheme of things it isn’t “that big of a deal.” I agree that we need to establish these fees aren’t optional, and they must be paid or there are consequences (including losing the privilege of grazing on the land.) But I don’t know that doing that is something that makes it worthwhile to get into a pitched gun battle with a crowd of separatist/sovereignist yahoos. In fact I know it isn’t worth that. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/69 "2014-04-14T15:44:26Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I will forbear because you rebrand new. JC - how does one ‘rebrand new’ here at the Dope? Change your username, try on a new online personality? Sounds like something borrowed from Madison Avenue. (Yeah, I know, you meant to say “you’re brand new” but I still couldn’t resist. You know me. :D) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/70 "2014-04-14T15:45:22Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > No, it sounds like “they have guns and bad attitudes, so we’ll let them get away with taking public property for themselves”. > > It’s certainly not worth shooting people over, but by all means, the government should certainly start enforcing the judgment against him financially and begin shooting his trespassing cattle. If you shoot his (presumably valuable) cattle, how are you going to collect the judgment against him? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/71 "2014-04-14T15:45:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m wondering why this “It isn’t worth shooting people over” mantra is only being chanted towards the government side of this debate? Easy: The government shoots people in my name, and thus I have a desire to see that not happen except where it is absolutely necessary. I don’t support the other side at all, but I have no moral culpability in their actions, they have to abide their own conscience, but them having poor moral compasses doesn’t make me want to shoot them. That’s how I look at it, if I wouldn’t personally be willing to shoot someone over this, I don’t want the government doing it either. I am personally willing to shoot someone to stop a bank robbery on the other hand, so I’m fine with the government doing the same. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/72 "2014-04-14T15:47:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m wondering why this “It isn’t worth shooting people over” mantra is only being chanted towards the government side of this debate? Maybe because, in matters of common sense and morality, we hold the federal government to a higher standard than a bunch of angry yokels? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/73 "2014-04-14T15:50:07Z")
When a bunch of angry yokels drive across the country to wave their guns around at an existing armed standoff they probably shouldn’t get much of the benefit of the doubt. Having said that, I am pleased (as I noted above) the feds backed down. The last thing we need is another Weaver standoff. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/74 "2014-04-14T15:56:48Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > The Occupy people raped and pillaged ? > > Cool. It went a lot [like this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZeOUI2zEbo), actually. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/75 "2014-04-14T15:57:31Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > They [shut down the highway](http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/12/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/?hpt=hp_bn1) for a while. Not sure if that’s trespassing, but it’s pretty darn inconvenient. There you are then: [NRS 405.230](http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-405.html#NRS405Sec230), obstruction or damage to highway. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > When a bunch of angry yokels drive across the country to wave their guns around at an existing armed standoff they probably shouldn’t get much of the benefit of the doubt. Having said that, I am pleased (as I noted above) the feds backed down. The last thing we need is another Weaver standoff. Is anyone giving them the benefit of the doubt? Bundy’s pretty clearly in the wrong (and showing up to a protest with long guns is wildly inappropriate), it’s just nice to resolve this sort of thing so that a) no one is dead, and b) the government can still enforce the judgment against Bundy, perhaps by collecting the cattle again and hauling them in secret to somewhere distant and defensible, pursuant to putting them up for auction. Or, seizing other assets of Bundy’s. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/76 "2014-04-14T16:00:01Z")
> [@SteveKasian](#): > > Wrong; that’s just how things work in your head, not here. You just joined this month. Please acquaint yourself with the forum rules; they’re posted in a sticky at the top of every forum. > [@SteveKasian](#): > > If someone is going to post in a comments or forum thread and take issue with another poster’s assertions, it is expected that said someone has at least informed themselves on the most basic aspects of the story about which they are posting. “2Sense” obviously hasn’t even bothered to do so, which essentially means 2Sense is, by popular definition, a troll. And **that** is not how things work here. On the Dope, you only use personal insults in the BBQ Pit, no other forum, and “troll” definitely is an insult by Dope rules. [junior-Mod hat off] ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/77 "2014-04-14T16:02:50Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > JC - how does one ‘rebrand new’ here at the Dope? Change your username, try on a new online personality? Sounds like something borrowed from Madison Avenue. > > (Yeah, I know, you meant to say “you’re brand new” but I still couldn’t resist. You know me. :D) _sigh_ I did that on my phone in a crappy Days Inn waiting for a gymnastics meet to begin. Y’all are lucky it was in English. On the subject, everyone can stop reporting that post. Or at least read a little further to see that I caught it already. ETA: **BrainGlutton** , please don’t put that hat on again. The poster’s been spoken to about it and I don’t need another two days of complaints about Junior Modding to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/78 "2014-04-14T16:07:51Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Several of the parks occupied during OWS events around the city had strict usage rules against tents, against after-hours occupation and etc, but most cities let those slide. This is because the alternative would be sending riot police into the parks and violently forcing out and arresting people who weren’t really hurting anything. Some cities even went so far as to truck in portable toilets and other sanitary equipment for public health reasons, and provided electricity hook ups. Some cities of course did send in riot police, and I’d argue they looked the worse for it. The OWS weren’t a bunch of armed yahoos just waiting for a chance to use their guns. As far as trespassing, these same yahoos want everyone to have guns so they can “stand their ground” and shoot trespassers. Not that I want all the dumbass yahoos shot, but I wouldn’t shed a tear if they were. Live by the gun and all that. Shoot 'em in the legs. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/79 "2014-04-14T16:13:48Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > No, it sounds like “they have guns and bad attitudes, so we’ll let them get away with taking public property for themselves”. > > It’s certainly not worth shooting people over, but by all means, the government should certainly start enforcing the judgment against him financially and begin shooting his trespassing cattle. Well, my suggestion was to put up a fence so they _can’t_ take public property for themselves. The “forgive the million dollars” is basically a good will gesture (like pardoning ex-confederates) in order to prevent more government hating militias in the future. But if you want to garnish his income over this, I won’t be too upset. The important part is avoiding bloodshed (and/or a popular uprising) over a minor civil infraction. The problem with bank robbers is they threaten to kill people unless they get the money. Who did Cliven Bundy threaten to kill? And not to digress too much, but what is with those “First Amendment Areas”? This mockery of the Constitution probably brought out more armed protesters than any property disagreement did. It was a big mistake that framed this dispute in a “freedom fighter” lens, broadcast a backwater farm spat all over Facebook, and could have easily been avoided. My point is if the humans in government would have treated these human citizens less like criminal scum and more like… human citizens, this wouldn’t even be a story. But lord knows, we have to “make an example”. Like there aren’t enough atrocities inflicted by this government to make that example to everyone who reads a book or watches the news. Maybe we ought to start “making an example” of government as an institution we can all respect, and that respects the people from which it ultimately derives its power and authority? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/80 "2014-04-14T16:14:48Z")
How did the government treat the Bundys like “criminal scum”, exactly? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=5)