# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/101 "2014-04-14T16:59:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I agree they should not have caved to these thugs. The ranchers and all their supporters should have been charged with crimes. Allowing your cattle to graze on public land is theft. Intimidating federal agents cannot be tolerated. If these people hate the government so much, then stop having the government subsidize their cattle. If those gun-totin’ thug rednecks hate our “guvmint” so much then let them move to a country that might be more suitable for them such as say, Somalia or Russia. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/102 "2014-04-14T17:17:30Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The problem with bank robbers is they threaten to kill people unless they get the money. Who did Cliven Bundy threaten to kill? This protest group did everything short of threatening to kill government representatives. [QUOTE=Cliven Bundy, from the wiki entry] Addressing the protestors, Bundy said “We definitely don’t recognize [the BLM director’s] jurisdiction or authority, his arresting power or policing power in any way,” and “We’re about ready to take the country over with force!”. [/QUOTE] If the government had held its position, and that mob had followed through on the fantasies of this piece of work, I would have had no great problem with the government shooting these people over what at its root, is grass. I’m not really a law and order type of person; but when you start talking about violently overthrowing the government and actually show up with an armed gang, I can’t be terribly broken up when you are shot. And seriously folks, if the Comanche couldn’t defeat the U.S. Government by arms, you’re not going to. Learn to convince people and win at the ballot box. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/103 "2014-04-14T17:23:17Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > If those gun-totin’ thug rednecks hate our “guvmint” so much then let them move to a country that might be more suitable for them such as say, Somalia or Russia. I can’t help but wonder whose side these armed rebels would take if a crowd of armed Native Americans started stopping vehicles to “ask questions” about their ancestral rights. I’ll go so far as to say they’d show up with their own guns ready to blaze down some darkies. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/104 "2014-04-14T17:39:36Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > This protest group did everything short of threatening to kill government representatives. So you agree that they _didn’t_? ETA: “Bearing arms” is specifically _not_ a death threat. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/105 "2014-04-14T17:41:39Z")
I suspect the protestors themselves would be better at explaining their side than you’ve been. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/106 "2014-04-14T17:42:48Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > So you agree that they _didn’t_? I, for one, do not agree. These radical extremists showed up armed to the teeth, clearly meant to intimidate duly authorized public servants. The threat of violence was real. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/107 "2014-04-14T17:43:10Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > So you agree that they _didn’t_? > > ETA: “Bearing arms” is specifically _not_ a death threat. If you’re brandishing guns, you are de facto willing to kill. Otherwise, carry mace and tasers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/108 "2014-04-14T17:54:16Z")
> [@SteveKasian](#): > > No, the sky isn’t falling and the country isn’t descending into chaos and ruthless tyranny against all citizens, and Alex Jones is not telling the truth because he is, indeed, a lying POS con man, but things are most certainly headed in the direction of a very gradual, virtually silent takeover by the federal government. You are looking in the wrong direction; for “federal,” substitute “corporate.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/109 "2014-04-14T17:55:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > This is more a case that an ever encroaching government . . . But, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/110 "2014-04-14T17:57:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Amnd are you willing to live with the consequences of a 50-50 nation divided over ideas now seeing that one side is willing to use the government to kill the other side? :dubious: Well, **yeah,** collectively so willing since about 1861! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/111 "2014-04-14T17:58:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Ah, the guns are just for show? If the government wasn’t contemplating deadly force, why did they send an army of armed agents? Same reason they always do, they might be **met** with force. If the cops knock on your door, with no intent to arrest you, just to ask you a few questions about something you might have seen, they’re still coming armed, better safe than sorry. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/112 "2014-04-14T17:59:57Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > If you’re brandishing guns, you are de facto willing to kill. Otherwise, carry mace and tasers. And even mace and tasers indicate a potential intent to commit violent assault, albeit of a non-lethal kind. What someone engaged in a peaceful protest would carry is a sign, or nothing at all. Any redneck mob stupid enough to brandish guns would be very likely to be incited into using them. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/113 "2014-04-14T18:01:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You are looking in the wrong direction; for “federal,” substitute “corporate.” Corporations aren’t all that united in their agendas. Growing wealth inequality we already have, which will eventually require some adjusting, but corporations are more likely to destroy each other than band together in some sinister cabal. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/114 "2014-04-14T18:05:49Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > ETA: “Bearing arms” is specifically _not_ a death threat. Of course it is, if you bring them to any kind of confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/115 "2014-04-14T18:07:42Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Corporations aren’t all that united in their agendas. Growing wealth inequality we already have, which will eventually require some adjusting, but corporations are more likely to destroy each other than band together in some sinister cabal. They are pretty much united in the agenda of making sure their collective voice in every capital is louder than anyone else’s, and there are many, many historical instances of them banding together in sinister cabals, and one current such instance is [ALEC](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/116 "2014-04-14T18:14:26Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > So you agree that they _didn’t_? > > ETA: “Bearing arms” is specifically _not_ a death threat. Is it your position that those whose job to is to enforce the law should come unarmed to a confrontation populated by those who _are_ armed and lead by a lawbreaker who addresses the crowd with " “We definitely don’t recognize [the BLM director’s] jurisdiction or authority, his arresting power or policing power in any way,” and “We’re about ready to take the country over with force!”? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/117 "2014-04-14T18:14:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course it is, if you bring them to any kind of confrontation. By that reasoning, the police were also issuing death threats…they brought arms to a confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/118 "2014-04-14T18:21:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > By that reasoning, the police were also issuing death threats…they brought arms to a confrontation. Kids, can you say “false equivalency”? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/119 "2014-04-14T18:21:40Z")
Bearing arms is not a threat. “Brandishing”, as I understand it, means waving a gun around to assert power. That is a threat. Pointing a weapon at someone is a threat. In either case, force is justified in stopping that threat – perhaps even deadly force, in the latter case. Does anybody have a citation showing the protesters did anything at all with their weapons except carry them? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/120 "2014-04-14T18:22:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Kids, can you say “false equivalency”? Feel free to revise your remarks if you don’t like the implications of them. Bearing arms is only a death threat _when the arms are used to threaten_, never by itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=7)