# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/121 "2014-04-14T18:22:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course it is, if you bring them to any kind of confrontation. Bullshit. Preparing a defense isn’t a threat. _Pointing_ guns at people is a threat. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/122 "2014-04-14T18:25:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Not paying fees isn’t theft or even usually a crime. It’s looked at as a matter of debt, and we don’t arrest people for debt in the United States. You can be jailed on contempt for non-payment after a court order, if there is a demonstrated ability to pay the debt and you’re just willfully violating the court order in your refusal. > > I would instead think criminal trespass would be an appropriate charge to pursue. As would liens on Bundy’s assets. I am assuming he’s not grazing cattle for fun, but to sell for slaughter. If there are liens on the cattle then when he does sell them he will get no money. That in itself would seem to be a pretty big blow to Bundy. Seems to make some sense but what about in the cases (such as this one) where the people involved don’t recognize the governing authority? As one other poster alluded to, having citizens decide which laws they’re going to abide by isn’t the way of a civilized society. While I don’t disagree that having this devolve into another Ruby Ridge or Waco episode would not be good, neither is it optimal to let scofflaws get off scott-free. Since I identify with neither Tea Party-types nor “2nd Amendmenters” I have to say that if violence ensues and these people who are there to “support” Cliven Bundy get the worst of it (which they most certainly would if it came to that) I certainly wouldn’t be one claiming, later, that the “guvmint” overstepped its bounds. Those people are there brandishing firearms and trying to intimidate federal officials while those officials are in the process of trying to execute orders they’ve been given. That means, to me, that those people are merely looking for trouble. If they keep looking much longer they’re going to find it and it won’t, in all likelihood, end well for them. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/123 "2014-04-14T18:26:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is it your position that those whose job to is to enforce the law should come unarmed to a confrontation populated by those who _are_ armed and lead by a lawbreaker who addresses the crowd with " “We definitely don’t recognize [the BLM director’s] jurisdiction or authority, his arresting power or policing power in any way,” and “We’re about ready to take the country over with force!”? Both of those are free speech, in my opinion. Unless he actually incited violence, he’s factually wrong, but not a threat. Certainly, the BLM was justified in arming themselves. The problem is their provocation of an armed crowd over a patch of grass and their restriction of first amendment rights, not that they were armed, doing their jobs, or otherwise present. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/124 "2014-04-14T18:27:38Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > Wait. So **SteveKasian** isn’t going to come back and explain why I should be resisting at all costs (even bloodshed if need be) to keep my constitutional rights? Probably because he doesn’t like the rules of the SDMB. In all likelihood he’d prove to you how much he dislikes them through armed force, if he could. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/125 "2014-04-14T18:28:08Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Bullshit. Preparing a defense isn’t a threat. _Pointing_ guns at people is a threat. Playing the “I’m Not Touching You! I’m Not Touching You!” game with the government is fucking dangerous, and anybody that plays this game deserves whatever they get. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/126 "2014-04-14T18:29:18Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > Seems to make some sense but what about in the cases (such as this one) where the people involved don’t recognize the governing authority? As one other poster alluded to, having citizens decide which laws they’re going to abide by isn’t the way of a civilized society. While I don’t disagree that having this devolve into another Ruby Ridge or Waco episode would not be good, neither is it optimal to let scofflaws get off scott-free. Since I identify with neither Tea Party-types nor “2nd Amendmenters” I have to say that if violence ensues and these people who are there to “support” Cliven Bundy get the worst of it (which they most certainly would if it came to that) I certainly wouldn’t be one claiming, later, that the “guvmint” overstepped its bounds. Those people are there brandishing firearms and trying to intimidate federal officials while those officials are in the process of trying to execute orders they’ve been given. That means, to me, that those people are merely looking for trouble. If they keep looking much longer they’re going to find it and it won’t, in all likelihood, end well for them. Bundy was the scofflaw. Not the protesters. Cite that any protester was brandishing or threatening anyone else with a weapon? ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/127 "2014-04-14T18:29:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > There should be a warrant for his arrest. He has stolen from the government to the tune of millions of dollars. Now if he was a welfare mom getting a loaf of bread with welfare money, the right wingers would be up in arms. But if one of their own rips off the government for millions- time to bear arms against the government! Not that I needed it to form my opinion of Cliven Bundy and his “followers” but when I found out that he’d been interviewed by Sean Hannity that told me all I needed to know about the situation. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/128 "2014-04-14T18:31:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Playing the “I’m Not Touching You! I’m Not Touching You!” game with the government is fucking dangerous, and anybody that plays this game deserves whatever they get. Who played that game? What does that even mean? Practicing your first and second amendment rights in support of a cause that you find important is provoking the government? But corralling people into a fenced off area, tazing people and sicking dogs after them is “just doing your job”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/129 "2014-04-14T18:31:57Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Both of those are free speech, in my opinion. Unless he actually incited violence, he’s factually wrong, but not a threat. > > Certainly, the BLM was justified in arming themselves. The problem is their provocation of an armed crowd over a patch of grass and their restriction of first amendment rights, not that they were armed, doing their jobs, or otherwise present. That dog you don’t have just keeps on getting bigger and bigger every time you post. It’s much more than an argument over a patch of grass, as you would know if you didn’t choose to ignore a number of cited posts in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/130 "2014-04-14T18:33:50Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > Seems to make some sense but what about in the cases (such as this one) where the people involved don’t recognize the governing authority? As one other poster alluded to, having citizens decide which laws they’re going to abide by isn’t the way of a civilized society. While I don’t disagree that having this devolve into another Ruby Ridge or Waco episode would not be good, neither is it optimal to let scofflaws get off scott-free. Since I identify with neither Tea Party-types nor “2nd Amendmenters” I have to say that if violence ensues and these people who are there to “support” Cliven Bundy get the worst of it (which they most certainly would if it came to that) I certainly wouldn’t be one claiming, later, that the “guvmint” overstepped its bounds. Those people are there brandishing firearms and trying to intimidate federal officials while those officials are in the process of trying to execute orders they’ve been given. That means, to me, that those people are merely looking for trouble. If they keep looking much longer they’re going to find it and it won’t, in all likelihood, end well for them. There are many laws we ignore in enforcement for various reasons. Many are arguing we do just that for immigration laws and laws on illegal entry into the country for example due to the “harsh” impacts of said laws on families and people who are otherwise law abiding residents. I’m not sure a bureaucratic dispute over grazing fees is one of those regulatory things we want to create militia movement martyrs over if it can be at all avoided. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/131 "2014-04-14T18:34:38Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Bundy was the scofflaw. Not the protesters. Cite that any protester was brandishing or threatening anyone else with a weapon? Why else would they be there with their firearms and their “2nd Amendment rights” in tow? If you’re going to respond with: “Because they knew that federal agents would come armed” then save your typing fingers because you and I (and many others) could go round-and-round on that until hell freezes over. You wanna believe that Cliven Bundy’s “followers” are nothing but a bunch of innocent bystanders there to make sure that one of their fellow citizens isn’t “to get trampled on” by our government, then I can’t stop you. But that’s not my view on the matter. Not by a long shot. And don’t try to come up with any absolutes on this because there aren’t any. As the aftermaths of Ruby Ridge and Waco would seem to illustrate. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/132 "2014-04-14T18:37:07Z")
Which ones? Again, I’m calling it like I see it. It looks to me like either a property dispute, or just a dispute over an unpaid bill with the federal government. Which all seems like a fairly workaday bill collection problem the government deals with daily. The issue was when people show up in support of the debtor, and the government sicks dogs on them, tazes them and deprives them of their rights to speech and assembly. So my only “dog” is that I’m an outside observer, who appears to have observed rights violations on the part of my government towards a harmless, if loudmouthed, petty trespasser. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/133 "2014-04-14T18:38:05Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > So you agree that they _didn’t_? > > ETA: “Bearing arms” is specifically _not_ a death threat. But certainly “take over this country by force!” indicates a willingness to use violence to achieve your ends, and the armed group displayed a potential means for this limited theater. I do wonder what might have happened if the government had stood its ground, as it was entitled to do. It’s possible that when the rubber meets the road, the mob would have seen the sense of the situation and backed down. If not, I believe they would have come out worse both politically and physically than the government once the dust had settled. The wiki article indicates that the BLM agents were armed well enough to take care of themselves. I do realize that it’s easy to type this while sitting comfy in my study in Texas. However, if you think that I would have felt differently were I present in Nevada, you would be surprised. When the government is threatened by force, it should meet it with force unless the situation warrants retreating, regrouping and counterattacking. While the legal routes to effect change in this country are fraught with difficulty, the military approach has been even less successful. For any country to succeed, I think it has to always remain so. Perhaps the local sheriff appealing to the better angels of our nature and diffusing the situation will work out in the end. Today, we have more Americans alive as a result. But if the same sort of cohort turns out encouraged by this resolution for a prize the U.S. Government isn’t willing to give up so easily, it may not turn out so well. I’d advise caution to the kind of person that’s willing to take a loaded gun to a protest, but they probably wouldn’t listen anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/134 "2014-04-14T18:39:07Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > Why else would they be there with their firearms and their “2nd Amendment rights” in tow? Read the Bill of Rights. Nobody needs a reason to arm themselves, and as rural ranchers, they’re probably armed everyday in the course of their mundane business. They’re supposed to specifically leave their weapons at home because the government might come around? When exercising one basic right, they must forgo another? ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/135 "2014-04-14T18:39:51Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There are many laws we ignore in enforcement for various reasons. Many are arguing we do just that for immigration laws and laws on illegal entry into the country for example due to the “harsh” impacts of said laws on families and people who are otherwise law abiding residents. I’m not sure a bureaucratic dispute over grazing fees is one of those regulatory things we want to create militia movement martyrs over if it can be at all avoided. Yeah, but that’s not all that’s going on there, it would seem. The federal agents have been given orders to follow up on some actions that have been taken against Cliven Bundy - those 2nd Amendmenters and Teabillies showing up as a show of “support” have no real reason to be there at all. Officially speaking they have “no dog in the fight” so what, exactly, is their purpose in being there? I say they are there in supposed solidarity with somebody who is refusing to comply with the law and who, admittedly, doesn’t recognize the authority of those trying to enforce it. Now - are you REALLY going to try to argue that it’s the federal government, in this case, whose actions are out of line? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/136 "2014-04-14T18:40:25Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Bullshit. Preparing a defense isn’t a threat. _Pointing_ guns at people is a threat. **Of course** “preparing a defense” against **officers of the law** is a threat. You have no right to defend yourself against them, it is a crime in every jurisdiction, and anyone who arrives armed at a confrontation with LEOs may reasonably be suspected of intent to commit that crime. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/137 "2014-04-14T18:40:33Z")
… and so the endless gun rights debate begins. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/138 "2014-04-14T18:40:50Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Bundy was the scofflaw. Not the protesters. Cite that any protester was brandishing or threatening anyone else with a weapon? From the wiki entry, which I assume is changing often, but is cited. > [@](#): > > Militiamen took position on a highway overpass, offering cover as horse-mounted wranglers led protesters to face off against heavily equipped BLM rangers and snipers. And really, what would make a sheriff and armed federal agents back down unless they were being threatened? ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/139 "2014-04-14T18:43:08Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Read the Bill of Rights. Nobody needs a reason to arm themselves, and as rural ranchers, they’re probably armed everyday in the course of their mundane business. They’re supposed to specifically leave their weapons at home because the government might come around? When exercising one basic right, they must forgo another? But why the firearms? If they believed in our government and believed that our government would not act irrationally over some grazing rights then why couldn’t they simply have shown up with, at most, some picketing signs? Why are they toting guns and risking a confrontation? Those are the questions I’M asking on this. Personally I think they came looking for trouble, as I posted earlier. When it finds them I won’t be shedding a single tear for ANY of them. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/140 "2014-04-14T18:44:17Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > But certainly “take over this country by force!” indicates a willingness to use violence to achieve your ends, and the armed group displayed a potential means for this limited theater. This is the closest they came to threatening violence. But I think it falls shy of an actual threat. It was rhetoric. > [@](#): > > When the government is threatened by force, it should meet it with force unless the situation warrants retreating, regrouping and counterattacking. So when the government initiates force, massacring a bunch of innocent civilians counts as “coming out ahead”? This your preferred government behavior? To kill anyone who disrupts a bureaucratic dispute over unpaid bills and/or trespassing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=8)