# The federal government made a serious mistake by caving in to Cliven Bundy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993 "2014-04-13T05:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/141 "2014-04-14T18:44:32Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Which ones? > > Again, I’m calling it like I see it. It looks to me like either a property dispute, or just a dispute over an unpaid bill with the federal government. Which all seems like a fairly workaday bill collection problem the government deals with daily. > > The issue was when people show up in support of the debtor, and the government sicks dogs on them, tazes them and deprives them of their rights to speech and assembly. > > So my only “dog” is that I’m an outside observer, who appears to have observed rights violations on the part of my government towards a harmless, if loudmouthed, petty trespasser. You’ve omitted the events that precipating the tazing and dogs: a BLM vehicle being rammed by an ATV, and surrounded by a hostile crowd. Concern for the driver’s safety is certainly reasonable in that situation. Also, it’s “sicced”. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/142 "2014-04-14T18:46:06Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > But why the firearms? If they believed in our government and believed that our government would not act irrationally over some grazing rights then why couldn’t they simply have shown up with, at most, some picketing signs? Why are they toting guns and risking a confrontation? Those are the questions I’M asking on this. Personally I think they came looking for trouble, as I posted earlier. When it finds them I won’t be shedding a single tear for ANY of them. Why does anyone “tote” guns? Because they don’t know what threats may befall them throughout their day and wish to keep the means to defend themselves nearby. A gun is a tool. Maybe they have to shoot rattlers in the course of their daily business. Maybe there’s a lot of crime around their neighborhood. Maybe it’s the culture they were brought up in. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/143 "2014-04-14T18:47:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You’ve omitted the events that precipating the tazing and dogs: a BLM vehicle being rammed by an ATV, and surrounded by a hostile crowd. Concern for the driver’s safety is certainly reasonable in that situation. > > Also, it’s “sicced”. Wiki specifically says the dump truck rammed the ATV. And Firefox tells me that’s misspelled. It wouldn’t be the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/144 "2014-04-14T18:47:39Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > So when the government initiates force, massacring a bunch of innocent civilians counts as “coming out ahead”? This your preferred government behavior? To kill anyone who disrupts a bureaucratic dispute over unpaid bills and/or trespassing? _ **Nobody is fucking saying this!** _ Where are you getting this shit?? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/145 "2014-04-14T18:49:04Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > Officially speaking they have “no dog in the fight” so what, exactly, is their purpose in being there? Again, you don’t need a reason to practice your rights. Why were them damn kids meddling at Kent State? Did they deserve to die? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/146 "2014-04-14T18:49:45Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Wiki specifically says the dump truck rammed the ATV. And Firefox tells me that’s misspelled. It wouldn’t be the first time. [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/) says the ATV rammed the truck. Either way, we have a vehicle being blocked and surrounded by a hostile crowd, and an ensuing scuffle with police. It can’t be painted as an unprovoked attack on a peaceful crowd by police. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/147 "2014-04-14T18:51:52Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Again, you don’t need a reason to practice your rights. Why were them damn kids meddling at Kent State? Did they deserve to die? No, you _didn’t!_ ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/148 "2014-04-14T18:53:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _ **Nobody is fucking saying this!** _ Where are you getting this shit?? > [@scabpicker](#): > > I do wonder what might have happened if the government had stood its ground, as it was entitled to do. It’s possible that when the rubber meets the road, the mob would have seen the sense of the situation and backed down. If not, \*\*I believe they would have come out worse both politically and physically than the government once the dust had settled. \*\*The wiki article indicates that the BLM agents were armed well enough to take care of themselves. Looks to me like scabpicker was specifically rooting for government to initiate violence in order put the protesters in their place and show them who’s boss. If I misread, I apologize. And the OP itself lamented the government back down, as if refusing to do violence to your own citizens is a sign of weakness or something. This is the attitude against which I’m arguing in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/149 "2014-04-14T18:55:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m wondering why this “It isn’t worth shooting people over” mantra is only being chanted towards the government side of this debate? _Another_ question I’m wondering. Don’t quite understand why when scenarios such as this one come up it’s perfectly fine - at least as far as people like that are concerned - to come armed ready to defend whichever “cause” they think they’re supporting but if the federal government threatens any force it’s “overstepping its bounds!” or “turning this country into a police state!” or some other such nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/150 "2014-04-14T18:57:28Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > And really, what would make a sheriff and armed federal agents back down unless they were being threatened? A court order. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/151 "2014-04-14T18:58:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **Of course** “preparing a defense” against **officers of the law** is a threat. You have no right to defend yourself against them, it is a crime in every jurisdiction, and anyone who arrives armed at a confrontation with LEOs may reasonably be suspected of intent to commit that crime. You do have a right to defend yourself from the police in certain circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/152 "2014-04-14T18:58:54Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > So when the government initiates force, massacring a bunch of innocent civilians counts as “coming out ahead”? This your preferred government behavior? To kill anyone who disrupts a bureaucratic dispute over unpaid bills and/or trespassing? Get your goddam hands off the goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/153 "2014-04-14T18:59:10Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There are many laws we ignore in enforcement for various reasons. Many are arguing we do just that for immigration laws and laws on illegal entry into the country for example due to the “harsh” impacts of said laws on families and people who are otherwise law abiding residents. I’m not sure a bureaucratic dispute over grazing fees is one of those regulatory things we want to create militia movement martyrs over if it can be at all avoided. Ok, but this appears to be more than just (for example, my own personal faves) exceeding the speed limit and possessing marijuana. This appears to be a coordinated and armed effort to recover property that was legally confiscated by the government. Most scofflaws at least acquiesce peaceably when they are caught, and resisting arrest carries a new level of penalties. When it escalates to pointing a weapon at authorities, your life is forfeit, even if the original offense was a speeding ticket. I don’t have any cite for these folks actually raising their weapon at anyone. I’d imagine that we might be reading about a different story if they did. However, if they got the sheriff to talk the BLM agents into allowing the cattle to be returned, I’m assuming they at least took up threating positions. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/154 "2014-04-14T18:59:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I should think that libertarians would be the first to condemn the armed mob for using force to steal from others. The property is the government’s, and I thought since property is The Most Important Thing In The Universe to libertarians, that they would come down on the side of the property owners, we the people. > > If we allow armed fanatics to disobey whatever laws they don’t feel like obeying, then civilization ceases to exist. Nevada has turned into Somalia. I’m with you on this. Granted, the incidents at Ruby Ridge and in Waco didn’t end prettily, but they never were going to once people like Randy Weaver and David Koresh became the focus. The gun-totin’ thugs in Nevada are doing nothing but escalating matters as far as I’m concerned. They’re obviously not smart enough to try to get others to see “their side of things” without threatening violence. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/155 "2014-04-14T19:00:07Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Again, you don’t need a reason to practice your rights. Why were them damn kids meddling at Kent State? Did they deserve to die? No, but it’s irrelevant to your argument, they **had** a reason and they **were not armed.** ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/156 "2014-04-14T19:00:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If Bundy wasn’t a freeloading jackass hiding behind half-baked conspiracy theories this wouldn’t be a story. 😃 - good one! ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/157 "2014-04-14T19:01:34Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > _Another_ question I’m wondering. Don’t quite understand why when scenarios such as this one come up it’s perfectly fine - at least as far as people like that are concerned - to come armed ready to defend whichever “cause” they think they’re supporting but if the federal government threatens any force it’s “overstepping its bounds!” or “turning this country into a police state!” or some other such nonsense. Arming yourself is not threatening force. For either side. _Threatening force_ is threatening force. Whichever side does that first is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/158 "2014-04-14T19:01:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Check out the right wing pages on Facebook, these guys are becoming the darlings of the Tea Party types. I don’t doubt that the Kochs are looking for this and any other excuse to make it easier for them to wrest some federal lands for themselves. No surprises, there. On _either_ count. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/159 "2014-04-14T19:02:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, but it’s irrelevant to your argument, they **had** a reason and they **were not armed.** Wiki says they vandalized police cars and called for “bringing the war home”. Sounds like those kids were not only calling for violence, but participating in it. They burned the ROTC building! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993/160 "2014-04-14T19:02:34Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > _Another_ question I’m wondering. Don’t quite understand why when scenarios such as this one come up it’s perfectly fine - at least as far as people like that are concerned - to come armed ready to defend whichever “cause” they think they’re supporting but if the federal government threatens any force it’s “overstepping its bounds!” or “turning this country into a police state!” or some other such nonsense. Probably because it is an asymmetrical conflict; in any such contest of force, the government might win or might back down, but cannot be defeated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-federal-government-made-a-serious-mistake-by-caving-in-to-cliven-bundy/685993.md?page=9)