# The Femmy Boy's Guide to Flirting **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 8, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144 "2018-01-08T15:21:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/381 "2018-01-19T18:41:06Z")
Anyway, I am going to go read Eddie Izzard’s\* Believe Me.\* Much more interesting, and less dismissive, I think (though I have only just started - maybe he has a chapter where he rails against everyone remotely like him who chose a different path and calls them sellouts). ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/382 "2018-01-19T18:43:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Well, there was that recent missive of, _‘If you’re not with me, you’re against me’_, so… > > I do agree that off this topic, he appears to be as you describe. However, _on_ this topic, he continues to lead with the victim card. I don’t see myself as a victim. I only _partially_ see myself even as a _former_ victim. But a perpetrator as well. To whatever extent it is true that masculine boy-identified or man-identified (i.e., cisgender, gender-normative) males have been hostile and nasty to me in my life, the main factor making it not equally true that I’ve been hostile and nasty to them with no more provocation than they had was that they outnumbered me by a large margin. If you think this is all about “Oh, pweeze feel sowwy for me, people did bad mean things to me in junior high”, chalk that up to one more failure to communicate on my part, if you want to, but you could also go back and try to read with the advice from the author that, no, that wasn’t supposed to be your takeaway. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/383 "2018-01-19T19:11:42Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > If you think this is all about “Oh, pweeze feel sowwy for me, people did bad mean things to me in junior high”, chalk that up to one more failure to communicate on my part, if you want to, but you could also go back and try to read with the advice from the author that, no, that wasn’t supposed to be your takeaway. And yet, isn’t that the first third of your 95,000 page book (longer than _Fahrenheit 451_ and _The Great Gatsby_ put together) that you were willing to walk on a publishing contract rather than cut? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/384 "2018-01-19T19:20:14Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > And yet, isn’t that the first third of your 95,000 page book (longer than _Fahrenheit 451_ and _The Great Gatsby_ put together) that you were willing to walk on a publishing contract rather than cut? Roughly the same size as _Anne of Green Gables_, a bit shorter than _Wuthering Heights_, and was there some point you thought you were making about the size of my book? And no, the first third of my book is about me as hostile perpetrator, actively antagonistic towards conventionally masc male guys, as well as being harassed by them. It’s about being _polarized_. It’s an important and necessary first third of the book if I want my readers to be shown, not told, how the sense of identity develops. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/385 "2018-01-19T19:44:58Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > If you think this is all about “Oh, pweeze feel sowwy for me, people did bad mean things to me in junior high”, chalk that up to one more failure to communicate on my part, if you want to, but you could also go back and try to read with the advice from the author that, no, that wasn’t supposed to be your takeaway. Well, whatever idea it is you’re trying to get across, I wish you all the best in achieving that goal. I just don’t think I have it in me to re-read the multiple threads you’ve posted on the subject; I’ll simply take your word for it. Thanks for listening and responding to your critics, me among them. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/386 "2018-01-19T20:02:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Well, whatever idea it is you’re trying to get across, I wish you all the best in achieving that goal. I just don’t think I have it in me to re-read the multiple threads you’ve posted on the subject; I’ll simply take your word for it. Thanks for listening and responding to your critics, me among them. You’re entirely welcome, and I’m sorry for all the frustration. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/387 "2018-01-19T21:42:20Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > You’re saying that even someone is fully aware that both people are male, they’re inclined to perceive a male person with a beard as more masculine? That’s one of the main reasons transmen take such extreme joy in their beard coming in. Especially those who are shorter than cisgender men; most (maybe all) of them grow beards to both be more readily perceived as a man and to be perceived as being more manly. Is it in dispute that a beard is associated with men and masculinity? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/388 "2018-01-19T22:00:50Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > That’s one of the main reasons transmen take such extreme joy in their beard coming in. Especially those who are shorter than cisgender men; most (maybe all) of them grow beards to both be more readily perceived as a man and to be perceived as being more manly. > > Is it in dispute that a beard is associated with men and masculinity? Well, I certainly associated it with maleness, but I’ve segmented what I’m calling “masculinity” off entirely from physiological maleness; and within that paradigm I guess I never gave it much thought. I came of age in a world of clean-shaven short-haired older men (parents’ generation) and more socially conservative men, versus longhaired males with facial hair who were called “sissy hippie commie queer” by the former group. Yes, I occasionally heard longhaired bearded fellows returning the taunts of “are you a boy or are you a girl” with the response “I’m not the one who scrapes off all of his most prominent secondary sex characteristics, mister smooth cheeks” or some such thing, but really I never thought of beards or facial hair in general as being associated with masculinity as distinct from biological-morphological maleness. Probably just me being oblivious. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/389 "2018-01-19T22:05:13Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Yes, I occasionally heard longhaired bearded fellows returning the taunts of “are you a boy or are you a girl” with the response “I’m not the one who scrapes off all of his most prominent secondary sex characteristics, mister smooth cheeks” or some such thing… Well, there’s a snappy rejoinder! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/390 "2018-01-19T22:27:12Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Well, there’s a snappy rejoinder! 😃 A razor wit. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/391 "2018-01-19T22:32:16Z")
**AHunter3** , you raise a lot of valid points. Problem is, your writing reads like a college term paper. Not even professors enjoy reading those. Half the length and twice the spice. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/392 "2018-01-20T00:57:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > \ _Lisa, honey, just because we don’t agree, doesn’t mean we don’t understand._ \ No, no, the original quote is even better. Just because I don’t _care_ doesn’t mean I don’t understand. It’s a household favorite. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/393 "2018-01-20T01:34:23Z")
> [@brainstall](#): > > Well, then why the need to label yourself as a male girl? What girlish things do you embrace? The bitchy, sneaky, shallow, vain, back-stabbing, helpless, dependent, weak, overly-emotional, manipulative archetype? Or the warrior princess? Are you kind, gentle, sensitive, nurturing, yet strong? Do you like pretty things? Girl encompasses a lot, do you just pick and choose some qualities and decide those are ‘girl’ and that’s who you are? > > There are times when I’ve been ‘one of the boys’, like riding motorcycles in my twenties when I knew no other women with a bike. We were all just friends with a common interest that wasn’t based on hooking up. I’m very comfortable hanging out with guys, but I’m not a female boy. I’m just me. I’m not everyone’s feminine ideal by a long stretch, but I’m also not terribly special in that. I guess if being a male girl makes you feel better, than it’s not my place to take that away, even if I don’t understand it. Yes, I’d like an answer on this too. Do you prefer pink things as to blue things? Did you like playing Barbies rather than with G.I. Joes? Give us some concrete examples. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/394 "2018-01-20T15:34:40Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > No, no, the original quote is even better. > > Just because I don’t _care_ doesn’t mean I don’t understand. > > It’s a household favorite. That’s it! :smack: It looked wrong but I still rolled with it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/395 "2018-01-20T16:36:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > That’s it! :smack: > > It looked wrong but I still rolled with it. Do you actually understand? Cuz I still don’t. 😕 (The quote is probably reversed here: just because I care doesn’t mean I understand) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/396 "2018-01-20T18:03:32Z")
At the risk of being self-referential: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Well, whatever idea it is you’re trying to get across, I wish you all the best in achieving that goal. I just don’t think I have it in me to re-read the multiple threads you’ve posted on the subject; I’ll simply take your word for it. Thanks for listening and responding to your critics, me among them. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/397 "2018-01-20T19:38:51Z")
I’ve yet to personally know a man or a woman who is absolutely “this” or “that.” Examples: My 6’4" state trooper friend is muscled and “performs” uber-masculinity when his job calls for it. He is also an expert quilter, belongs to quilt making clubs, and often goes to craft fairs. Another friend is of the Pamela Anderson mold and often plays the sexxxy 101% babe role. She is a heavy equipment operator and master truck mechanic. I dress really well and wear makeup to work. In other avenues of life I mostly wear guy clothes; at this moment the only “girl thing” I’m wearing is underwear. I have lots of traditionally male interests but one of my scholarly specialties is 1960s - 70s housewife humor, which is totally immersed in heteronormativity. All to say: few people are the cookie cutter gender model. Humans are more like lasagna and society is the better for it. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/398 "2018-01-20T19:47:30Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Why would someone want to put middle school and high school behind them? Do people actively want to forget who and where they’ve been, the thoughts and attitudes that were theirs at the time? I don’t mean “gee why don’t you still want to suck your thumb, you were totally into it when you were two” — I mean, I do get the notion of personal progress and greater wisdom and not being _stuck_ in your own past, constantly replaying something that happened backwhen like it’s a video loop… OK I guess that’s what you mean I’m doing, isn’t it? > > Well, if that’s what you mean, yeah that would be unhealthy. I’m struck by the contrasting phrase “put it behind you” though. There’s something kind of post-traumatic suppressive about that too. And I don’t mean you intended that meaning when you used the phrase, but that’s how it struck me. Neuroscience shows that our brains don’t really gel until the early 20s. My thinking/impulses/character are very different 30-years on, and in some aspects radically so. In fact, I’m different in a lot of ways from when I was forty. I’m curious if you’ve experienced a similar path. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/399 "2018-01-20T20:45:31Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Well, I certainly associated it with maleness, but I’ve segmented what I’m calling “masculinity” off entirely from physiological maleness; and within that paradigm I guess I never gave it much thought. I came of age in a world of clean-shaven short-haired older men (parents’ generation) and more socially conservative men, versus longhaired males with facial hair who were called “sissy hippie commie queer” by the former group. > > Yes, I occasionally heard longhaired bearded fellows returning the taunts of “are you a boy or are you a girl” with the response “I’m not the one who scrapes off all of his most prominent secondary sex characteristics, mister smooth cheeks” or some such thing, but really I never thought of beards or facial hair in general as being associated with masculinity as distinct from biological-morphological maleness. > > Probably just me being oblivious. If you’d like to see masculine stereotypes google “beard memes”. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144/400 "2018-01-20T23:26:09Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > If you’d like to see masculine stereotypes google “beard memes”. Or read Jaques’ speech from _As You Like It_: > [@](#): > > …Then a soldier, > Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard, > Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel, > Seeking the bubble reputation > Even in the cannon’s mouth. And then the justice, > In fair round belly with good capon lined, > With eyes severe and beard of formal cut… Or Beatrice in _Much Ado About Nothing_: > [@](#): > > He that hath a beard is more than a youth, and he that hath no beard is less than a man. He that is more than a youth is not for me, and he that is less than a man, I am not for him. The idea is an old one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-femmy-boys-guide-to-flirting/806144.md?page=21)