# The fight goes on . . . ("gay" as derogatory adjective) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103 "2003-05-09T14:17:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/1 "2003-05-09T14:17:40Z")
I just sent the following e-mail to my mother . . . my MOTHER!! > [@](#): > > \>Will try not to find a gay [gift bag for my nephew’s birthday present]. > > I’ve asked [sister] not to do this, and now I’d like to ask the same of you – at least not in my presence. Using “gay” in this manner is offensive and derogatory toward gay people, because it implies that “gay” = “bad.” They don’t like it used this way, and neither do I. There are plenty of other words available that don’t hurt people. > > See you tomorrow. > Scarlett Goddammit. :mad: This is my little-old-lady mom, who’s disappointed in me because I don’t attend a church. I KNOW she picked this usage up from my sister (who enjoys belittling minorities of all kinds – purely as a joke, you understand – along with my dad). My mom listens to this crap all the time, and while she doesn’t participate in it, she also never says anything to them about it. (It’s not nice to make waves, it won’t change anything, etc.) But I’ll be DAMNED if I’ll let any of them talk this way around me. I have nothing to lose – I’m already the black-sheep weirdo because I don’t have kids, am self-employed, have “such strong opinions” (noted only because they differ from everyone else’s and I express them occasionally when backed into a corner), eat “weird” food (ethnic, often vegetarian), have “weird” friends. You’d think with having a gay sister (as I mentioned in the “gay relatives” thread, everyone knows but it’s not discussed), she’d stop and think, but oh no. It’s just a joke! And none of “them” are here to hear it, right? So that makes it OK. NOT IN MY FUCKING BOOK. Sometimes I am just embarrassed and angered to hell by my whole fucking family. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Ego\_Mk2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Ego\_Mk2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ego_Mk2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/2 "2003-05-09T14:22:38Z")
You know, there are people who think “gay” = “bad”, and will continue to think so until they die. Nothing you do will change this, and by trying to change them you’ll make them dislike you (or dislike you More if they already don’t like you.) I think I stopped using “gay” that way when I was in 8th grade or so. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/3 "2003-05-09T14:37:57Z")
**Scarlett** : Kudos for fighting the Good Fight, but remember that in 2003 there are still people who think African-Americans belong in the fields. Some people hold ignorance close to their eyes as a shield against the unbearable light of actual thought. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/4 "2003-05-09T14:51:21Z")
Just because you know some people will never change doesn’t mean you should stop confronting them on their wrong behaviour. Any time someone uses “gay” to mean bad or stupid around me my favored reaction is to look at them quizzically and ask them to repeat what they said, and keep doing it until they figure out their error and apologize. Good on ya, Scarlett, keep it up. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/5 "2003-05-09T16:16:08Z")
A lot of people, including myself, learned the word “gay” to mean “bad” before they even knew what homosexuality is. It’s going to be a while, probably a generation of two, before this “gay” as “bad” usage dies out. I’m not defending this usage in any way, just pointing out why it will be around a while. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/6 "2003-05-09T16:29:35Z")
I think **Revtim** is onto something – people (particularly kids) who have no grasp on how it’s offensive to the very real gay people whom they might have no intention of insulting will use it as a pejorative with the approximate meaning of “not within the bounds of what folks like us consider to be good stuff.” I’m reminded of my father. Dad was not prejudiced to speak of; he liked the handful of black families in our hometown; he thought (from our naive and parochial perspective) that MLK was making a little too much of an issue about problems but was a basically good man. But Dad grew up with the term “nigger” as the standard usage for “person of ethnicity of sub-Saharan African origin” with no real negative connotation on it. And he used some derivatives that did have negative connotation without thought for what they implied – e.g., a makeshift repair intended to hold temporarily until the expertise or materials to make a proper repair could be obtained was “nigger-rigged.” I think something of the same sort is going on here – people (and kids particularly) are just not connecting the dots between “gay=not socially acceptable” and “gay=homosexual in nature” and as a result using an offensive term with no intent to offend. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/7 "2003-05-09T17:11:39Z")
I don’t buy the “people won’t change bit.” I’ve sun several RPGs for the 11-16 year old male crowd in various online forums, where _gay_ was a common slur. A virtual harsh warning was sufficient to stop the practice in its tracks. Of course, it helped being the Alpha. I don’t know what I’d say to my _mother_. :eek: My sympathies, Scarlett! ---
**Author:** ![ouisey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc29f/32.png) [@ouisey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouisey)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/8 "2003-05-09T18:03:10Z")
OK. When someone says “that bag is gay” I’m not thinking that the bag is plain out bad, per se, but more bad in a too-froo-froo way. Its got flowers and teddy bears all over it. It is a conception in society that gay people tend to be froo-froo, I guess because of characters like Jack in Will and Grace. And isn’t this why gay people were called gay in the first place? Because society had this conception of them being a little over-the-top froo froo? The thing that confuses me, is that the homosexual community took this term to themselves…I guess it goes for the term “queer” too. I can understand why the term “n…r” is a bad word. Black people don’t want to be called this, and I fully understand why. I can understand why a gay person would not want a person to use the word “gay” in a derogatory fashion, but if the word itself comes from a humiliating and cruel past, why apply it to yourself? I’m not defending anyone’s use of the word. I can’t stand the thought of anyone’s words hurting other people. The whole issue just confuses me. I don’t get mad when people yell “you throw like a girl!”, even though it stereotypes females as weak and incapable. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/9 "2003-05-09T18:14:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **ouisey** _ > > When someone says “that bag is gay” I’m not thinking that the bag is plain out bad, per se, but more bad in a too-froo-froo way. Its got flowers and teddy bears all over it. It is a conception in society that gay people tend to be froo-froo, I guess because of characters like Jack in Will and Grace. Why is it everyone only notices Jack, and not Will? And I’m sorry, but the only time I’ve heard the term “gay” used isn’t to mean “frilly,” it’s meant to mean “bad” or “lame.” > [@](#): > > And isn’t this why gay people were called gay in the first place? Because society had this conception of them being a little over-the-top froo froo? Um, no. Usage of the word dates back to the 1920’s/30’s when “gay” meant, in essence, “sexually liberal,” a warping of its meaning before that to mean “happy.” It never, AFAIK, meant “frilly.” > [@](#): > > The thing that confuses me, is that the homosexual community took this term to themselves…I guess it goes for the term “queer” too. I can understand why the term “n…r” is a bad word. Black people don’t want to be called this, and I fully understand why. > > I can understand why a gay person would not want a person to use the word “gay” in a derogatory fashion, but if the word itself comes from a humiliating and cruel past, why apply it to yourself? It’s called “taking ownership.” If we take the word “queer” and use it to have a meaning with pride, then when people use it as a slur it loses its power. We also took back the pink triangle from the Nazi concentration camps and turned it into a symbol of history and pride. > [@](#): > > I’m not defending anyone’s use of the word. I can’t stand the thought of anyone’s words hurting other people. The whole issue just confuses me. I don’t get mad when people yell “you throw like a girl!”, even though it stereotypes females as weak and incapable. Then maybe you should. Suffice it to say, if an _entire community_ identifies as X, and you use X to make fun of someone, you’re insulting that entire community. At least, that’s the way I see it. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Lucki\_Chaarms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lucki\_Chaarms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucki_Chaarms)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/10 "2003-05-09T18:15:52Z")
This can be used very well! Maybe a year ago, some friends and I were discussing what we would do on a particular evening. It came up that one of us knew the owner of a local gay dance club and could get a couple of us in (we were all under 18). We were considering it, but he couldn’t get all of us in, and some of us were female, so we decided against it. Next, someone suggested we go bowling, to which I replied “That’s even gayer than the other plan.” So there! LC ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/11 "2003-05-09T18:22:43Z")
Was it a gay bowling alley? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/12 "2003-05-09T18:23:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scarlett67 \* > **I KNOW she picked this usage up from my sister (who enjoys belittling minorities of all kinds – purely as a joke, you understand – along with my dad). … [With my mother] it’s just a joke!** Could it be she’s just trying to recreate the same humor as your sister, and merely failing, or maybe the meaning is lost in text? It’s a joke around here to call something gay/negative, because it’s understood the butt of the joke is people who use “gay=negative,” not gays themselves. What’s the difference between your sister doing it and your mother doing it? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/13 "2003-05-09T18:28:06Z")
Thank you, **Scarlett67** , for fighting ignorance. > [@](#): > > And isn’t this why gay people were called gay in the first place? Because society had this conception of them being a little over-the-top froo froo? No, the word “gay” comes from the Middle French “gai,” meaning licentious or wicked, often used in reference to prostitutes. It later came also to denote brightly colored or merry without losing its underworld connotations. And we aren’t all “too froo-froo.” Nice stereotype you got going there. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/14 "2003-05-09T18:38:50Z")
Esprix (or should I refer to you as Mr. Vice President?), I think it depends on how old you are as to how “gay” was used. I was born in the '50s, and “gay” as applied to an inanimate object, was frilly and effeminate. I’ve only heard it as “bad” in the last 15 years or so. I also don’t agree that some people will never learn. I believe there were people on these boards whose opinion has changed dramatically since being enlightened and exposed to a gay population. The fight won’t change things overnight, but I definitely see things changing. For the better. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/15 "2003-05-09T18:39:44Z")
When did the slur “that is so gay” begin? I never heard it when I was a kid, back in the McKinley Administration. ---
**Author:** ![athene1765](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@athene1765](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athene1765)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/16 "2003-05-09T18:43:59Z")
He didn’t say he thought homosexuals were too froo-froo. He did say it was a conception that society had, and that’s really undeniable, whether it’s true or not. I’ll admit that most of the gay guys I know camp it up at least a little bit. I dunno why, they think it’s fun. But that’s _most_ of the guys _I_ know. I doubt that four guys is a representative segment of an entire population. The gay women tend to be a little less, er, “stereotypical”, in that they may have short or long hair, be fat or thin, be friendly or grouchy, be outspoken or introverted, wear skirts or slacks… [sarcasm] You know. Just like REAL people. [/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/17 "2003-05-09T18:48:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*When did the slur “that is so gay” begin? I never heard it when I was a kid, back in the McKinley Administration. \*\* It seems to be mainly a sort of young, male, schoolchildren type of insult. Very similar to “lame”, though you don’t get so many people worked up about that. (Despite the fact it’s technically slurring crippled people). ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/18 "2003-05-09T18:50:15Z")
But when did it begin? When I was a kid, the unfortunate insulting phrase of choice was “that is so retarded!” Some posters have said they heard “that is so gay!” when they were kids—it goes back, what, ten, 15 years? ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/19 "2003-05-09T19:00:30Z")
I think so. First I heard it in UK was maybe somewhere about 15 years ago, often with the term “you are such a gaylord”. I have no clue where the lord bit derives from. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/20 "2003-05-09T19:53:05Z")
Yeah well, I get tired of people using “retarded” to describe something stupid or annoying. I have a mentally retarded daughter, but people still use this around me. It really pisses me off. It just proves that people have no regard for the feelings of others. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103.md?page=2)