# The fight goes on . . . ("gay" as derogatory adjective) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103 "2003-05-09T14:17:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/61 "2003-05-12T15:00:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > \*\*I think his premise is not faulty, if I understand it correctly. > > “Gay” meant _happy, merry_ in the late 1800’s.\*\* “Gay” also meant “sexually licentious” in the late 1800s. Victorian prostitutes were known as “gay girls” (and possibly “gay boys” for male prostitutes) for that reason. “Gay” as “homosexual” obviously evolved from this usage of the word. The use of “gay” as “merry” did persist into the 1950s at least, though. ---
**Author:** ![Reuben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@Reuben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reuben)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/62 "2003-05-12T15:15:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*Yeah, asking that an entire community of people not be equated with bad or unwanted is “politically correct.” > > :rolleyes: > > Esprix \*\* Actually the ‘politically correct’ part of this is the constant _demand_ that the entire human race unnaturally modify and censor _their_ everyday language to suit _your_ ideas and sensibilities. The argument for doing this isn’t helped any when the self-appointed language police consistently victimize hapless transgressors who clearly never intended any offence in the first place, such as the OPer’s mother. Censorship and taboo don’t lend themselves as effective weapons in the war against ignorance. Maybe you’d be better off pointing out how infernally _stupid_ it (using ‘gay’ as a derogatory adjective) makes the speaker sound. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/63 "2003-05-12T15:18:01Z")
“We’ll have a gay old time” is in the theme song to The Flintstones, and that started in the early 60s, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/64 "2003-05-12T16:15:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reuben \* > \*\*Actually the ‘politically correct’ part of this is the constant _demand_ that the entire human race unnaturally modify and censor _their_ everyday language to suit _your_ ideas and sensibilities. > . \*\* kinda like asking folks to refer to that potato side dish as “freedom fries”? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/65 "2003-05-12T16:32:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reuben \* > > Actually the ‘politically correct’ part of this is the constant _demand_ that the entire human race unnaturally modify and censor _their_ everyday language to suit _your_ ideas and sensibilities. Hey, I didn’t choose the term “gay community,” nor did I choose the phrase, “That’s so gay,” so pardon me for taking exception to the notion of using the term that refers to my entire community to mean bad, unwanted or substandard. And really, do you believe the two are unconnected? > [@](#): > > The argument for doing this isn’t helped any when the self-appointed language police consistently victimize hapless transgressors who clearly never intended any offence in the first place, such as the OPer’s mother. I don’t think she “victimized” anyone - her mother obviously hasn’t been living in a cave on Mars with fingers in her ears, so she was actually already aware that there was such a thing as a “gay community” and referring to something as being “gay” might - shock of all shocks! - be associated with that community. Puh-lease. > [@](#): > > Censorship and taboo don’t lend themselves as effective weapons in the war against ignorance. Maybe you’d be better off pointing out how infernally _stupid_ it (using ‘gay’ as a derogatory adjective) makes the speaker sound. And I think that’s exactly what she did - and guess what? Her mother realized her mistake. Wow! It worked! Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/66 "2003-05-12T16:37:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reuben \* > \*\*Actually the ‘politically correct’ part of this is the constant _demand_ that the entire human race unnaturally modify and censor _their_ everyday language to suit _your_ ideas and sensibilities. > > The argument for doing this isn’t helped any when the self-appointed language police consistently victimize hapless transgressors who clearly never intended any offence in the first place, such as the OPer’s mother. > > Censorship and taboo don’t lend themselves as effective weapons in the war against ignorance. Maybe you’d be better off pointing out how infernally _stupid_ it (using ‘gay’ as a derogatory adjective) makes the speaker sound. \*\* Not demand, _reminder_. The OP said how she feels it is unacceptable. Many of us agree with her. You can _use_ political correctness to try and sweep this away and make it seem pointless. It isn’t so. Censorship and telling someone you find something unacceptable are two different things. So, if the mother had said “how black” or any other group of people, that would also be acceptable? I think _not_. I think your post makes you sound stupid. Was I better off doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Reuben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@Reuben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reuben)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/67 "2003-05-12T17:27:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > I think your post makes you sound stupid. Was I better off doing that? \*\* Than what? Saying how ‘gay’ you thought I sounded? I suppose so. But it makes you sound damn rude, and to my mind such deliberate rudeness to another person is much worse than the impersonal use of the word ‘gay’ as described in the OP. But since I don’t belong to the great ranks of the oppressed I guess my feelings don’t get any consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Ego\_Mk2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Ego\_Mk2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ego_Mk2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/68 "2003-05-12T18:24:09Z")
Let’s see. All you defenders are getting pissed at people who use the word “gay” while meaning “stupid”, etc. Do you also snap tp attention when the term “bitch” is used? In its current insult form it means “highly irritating woman” or some such thing. Would you berate a gay person for saying “Stop being such a bitch!”? Would you take it as an insult to ALL women, as you so rightly should? If you don’t you’re gay. 😛 “Oh, but bitch means female dog as well.” Yes, and gay means happy. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/69 "2003-05-12T18:50:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Let’s see. All you defenders are getting pissed at people who use the word “gay” while meaning “stupid”, etc. > > Do you also snap tp attention when the term “bitch” is used? In its current insult form it means “highly irritating woman” or some such thing. \*\* I can’t imagine many high horses that the “defenders” here wouldn’t mind jumping on. Making a big deal over the use of “gay” as a derogatory adjective to the point where you are jumping all over the people who use it is indeed gay, as in lame. It comes across as whiny and overtly PC (which IMO is worse than any of the indignant sputtering this post is sure to incite against myself). I’m sure however that it gives a big shot of moral righteousness to those who see meaning in the crusade against grade school level insults. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/70 "2003-05-12T18:51:56Z")
Hmmm - “bitch” is used as an intentional insult against women, even though it has a second meaning as “female dog.” “Gay” is used as an intentional insult, with the added bonus of offending _an entire community_ (much like, say, women) who identify as the very word you’re using as an insult, even though it has a second meaning as “happy.” Were you trying to make a point, or were you just trying to sound stupid? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/71 "2003-05-12T18:56:07Z")
“Man, that is so _black_.” “Dude, you are so _Jew_.” “Damn, your car is so _female_.” If any of the above words were used to mean “bad,” “unacceptable” or “inadequate”, please explain to me how any of these would be acceptable. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Ego\_Mk2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Ego\_Mk2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ego_Mk2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/72 "2003-05-12T18:57:21Z")
And women don’t consider the word “bitch” an insult? I guess I’m missing your point, Esprix. How is “gay” any worse than “bitch” when used in the same context? Why aren’t you jumping ass over elbows on the people who use “bitch”? Or do you consider women less worthy of defense than gays? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/73 "2003-05-12T19:06:47Z")
I know this bothers some people, but I think a lot of the people that it bothers a lot are coming at it the wrong way round. People don’t dislike gay people because they are using the term “gay” as an insult. They use the term “gay” as an insult because they dislike gay people. So it seems to me, it would be better if, instead of stopping people from using the word insultingly, we found some way to get people to stop disliking gay people. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/74 "2003-05-12T19:07:24Z")
the difference he’s pointing out is that in using the term ‘bitch’ in a derogutory way, is to specifically identify _that woman_ of the classification “women” a bad thing. vs. the term ‘gay’ being used as the pejoritive, negative thing itself. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/75 "2003-05-12T19:17:40Z")
I’m always amazed at the resilience of people who argue that they should be able to insult people however they want. I guess it’s a denial thing; they’re committed to defending calling things ‘gay’ because to acknowledge that they’re being rude by doing so is admitting to being asinine. The logic involved in the whole “If you think that word is insulting, then you must think _this_ word is insulting! Why don’t you go after people who use that too! Oh, and _this_ word!” is excremental. If you’ve stooped to using that juvenalia as an actual defense, give it up. Resign yourself to a life of Neanderthal social interactions. Meanwhile, you’re being asked to not use a word in a certain way because a group of people feel it’s demeaning. What kind of asshole then turns around and says “No it’s not! Prove that it’s demeaning! You can’t possibly be offended! You’re too sensitive!” People are asking you to stop doing something stupid. It doesn’t cost you anything to stop, and might help a population that’s already severely marginalized in our society to feel better about themselves. Hell, refraining from using the term might even serve to make you seem more sophisticated. Tiny sacrifice, great good. I thought it’d be a no-brainer, but apparently it’s a some-brainer, because no-brains continue to defend their senseless clinging to a derogatory usage. And to those who think that no harm can come of this usage… imagine growing up gay, and coming to terms with your gayness, when everyone around you is calling everything stupid and useless “gay.” Do you think that might make you feel stupid? Useless? Tell you what; prove to me that using the word “gay” as a derogatory adjective does anyone, anywhere any good. If you can’t do that, then could you please, please quit using it that way? It hurts a lot of peoples’ feelings. Because if peoples’ feelings don’t matter to you, you’re an asshole, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/76 "2003-05-12T19:29:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > I know this bothers some people, but I think a lot of the people that it bothers a lot are coming at it the wrong way round. People don’t dislike gay people because they are using the term “gay” as an insult. They use the term “gay” as an insult because they dislike gay people. So it seems to me, it would be better if, instead of stopping people from using the word insultingly, we found some way to get people to stop disliking gay people. I think an essential part of the process of combatting the animosity against gay people is making the connection between “gay” and “bad” obsolete. Kids who hear “gay” as a derogatory adjective are conditioned to associate being gay with being bad, or unacceptable, without even knowing the other meanings of the word gay. So, when Sally comes out to Sue, and tells her “I’m gay”, Sue interprets that as a bad thing, just because she’s used to seeing the word in a negative context. And odds are, Sally sees it as a bad thing as well, for similar reasons. In other words, I think that getting people to stop using “gay” to mean “bad” is going to help people to stop seeing gay people as being bad people. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/77 "2003-05-12T19:37:41Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Ego\_Mk2** _ > > And women don’t consider the word “bitch” an insult? I guess I’m missing your point, Esprix. > > How is “gay” any worse than “bitch” when used in the same context? > > Why aren’t you jumping ass over elbows on the people who use “bitch”? Or do you consider women less worthy of defense than gays? Say, have you stopped beating you wife? :rolleyes: Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Ego\_Mk2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Ego\_Mk2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ego_Mk2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/78 "2003-05-12T19:39:08Z")
Devil’s advocate: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrVisible \* > \*\* Tell you what; prove to me that using the word “gay” as a derogatory adjective does anyone, anywhere any good. If you can’t do that, then could you please, please quit using it that way? It hurts a lot of peoples’ feelings. > > Because if peoples’ feelings don’t matter to you, you’re an asshole, plain and simple. \*\* Tell you what; prove to me that using the word “Neanderthal” as a derogatory adjective does anyone, anywhere any good. If you can’t do that, then could you please, please quit using it that way? It hurts a lot of peoples’ feelings. Because if peoples’ feelings don’t matter to you, you’re an asshole, plain and simple. PS Never in this thread have I advocated using “gay” in a derogatory sense, though I did use it in sarcastic jest. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/79 "2003-05-12T19:43:56Z")
Neanderthals are extinct. Unless, of course, you’re the exception. Therefore, I can demonstrate that nobody on the planet is harmed by my usage of the word Neanderthal as a derogatory adjective. Except for the person I targeted the word at; you. A precise use of language, to insult someone who needs insulting. I was hoping you’d bite on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Ego\_Mk2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Ego\_Mk2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ego_Mk2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103/80 "2003-05-12T20:11:39Z")
I see. I’ve been trounced by your rapier wit. I bow to your gracious intellect. Now I think I’ll go have anal sex with men. On second thought, no I won’t. That would be gay. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fight-goes-on-gay-as-derogatory-adjective/174103.md?page=5)